Hey

Check this out! One of the coolest gifts I’ve ever been given…. a “mini-me” hand made out of felt!

Thank you Marian Buzbee!

What is the best gift you’ve been given recently – 0r ever?

Vicky

Video Response To The Blog Debate! from Vicky Beeching on Vimeo.

Greetings from my desk, with me holding a large mug of coffee, working on my Blog!

Well the debate has been raging on my previous post, with almost 80 comments! Thank you for sharing your thoughts and being so real and so communicative!

Here are my thoughts…. so I hope you will challenge them, be honest and continue to conversation here!

This will be lengthy as it’s such a big topic, so feel free to read (a) NONE OF THIS! (b) some of this (c) all of this…. No hard feelings either way I just want to be thorough in my response to you all!

Comment below to challenge anything I’ve said….. I WELCOME debate and love it when we can talk through our different opinions…that was one of my favorite parts of Oxford University’s theology courses….

Hope my views make sense…. I really do believe in a gentle, loving God…but I also don’t see that His love should look like Him ignoring our own choices and decisions – real love is when we let someone make their own choices and don’t force them or treat them like a machine.. so for me love and justice go hand in hand…

Until the next theological debate, keep this one alive and kicking in the comments!!!

Vicky

ONCE SAVED, ALWAYS SAVED?

Once Saved Always Saved?

•    THE LOVE OF GOD: Some argue that a loving God couldn’t allow people who choose him to be ‘lost’ as his love would be contradicted. I believe the opposite: his love has blessed us with the dignity of free will. You love someone when you let them go an choose their heart’s desire. “What a man sows, he will reap” is the system he has set up. If he didn’t love us, he would force us like machines to obey him. Rather he gives us the choice, like the father let the prodigal son choose to take the money and run. He never ceases to love us, yet he honors his decision to give us free will. Adam and Eve choice to disobey him, so the reaped the consequence of being removed from the garden, which to me symbolizes being removed from relationship with him, reaping what they chose to sow.

•    GOD’S IDENTITY AS JUDGE: Some say that God’s judgment and his whole identity as Judge is incompatible with his love and mercy. Rather, I believe that his judgment is the expression of his love. As a perfect father he lets us choose our own way. And when he sits as Judge it is to validate our own ability to choose. He gives us the dignity to reap what we sow. I believe he does so with much grief and many tears. But judging us is simply honoring our choices, showing that he follows through with his promise to let us choose our own destiny. So anyone who said yes to him, then decides to change their mind, is free to do so and will reap that choice.

•    PREDESTINATION: I do not believe in predestination, or partial atonement. I believe that John 3:16 says “whosoever believes in him will…have everlasting life”. Yes, God is omniscient and knows the end from the beginning. So he knows who will and won’t choose him. I believe we are all predestined as potential accepters of Jesus. Then we get to choose whether we follow through on this. Like when a school teacher tells her class at the start of a semester that they “already have been given an A grade and all they have to do now is keep it”. God marks each of us as his, then we get to choose to sow and reap what we will. So I don’t believe anyone is pre-chosen to be given an un-lose-able gift of salvation. We are free to choose Jesus and also free to un-choose him. (And I know un-choose an un-lose-able are NOT real words!! I just like them!)

•    WORKS: I don’t mean to sound like we need to earn salvation like a school kid tries to earn an A grade. It is grace alone. But there are too many verses like James saying “faith without works is dead”. I believe it’s as simple as this – something alive will bear fruit. The fruit is not strenuous or labored for. It is the natural result of something alive, like an apple tree doesn’t strain itself to grow apples, they just happen. If we are alive in Christ it will show itself in fruit/works. Jesus said that the tree that doesn’t bear fruit will be chopped down and cast into the fire. Which sounds like bearing fruit is pretty important!

•    CHURCH HISTORY: I think seeing what the early church believed is always very helpful; trying to get as close as possible to the kind of views that the disciples in Acts had. Chinese whispers dilutes the original message, so getting back to the first hand info can help us. Prior to John Calvin, the Once Saved Always Saved doctrine was very scarce – so within the first 1500 years of Christianity there was a holy reverence that one could lose salvation, thus it must be “worked out with fear and trembling” as Paul suggests.

•    Irenaeus wrote during the 2nd century: “”And to as many as continue in their love towards God, does He grant communion with Him. But communion with God is life and light, and the enjoyment of all the benefits which He has in store. But on as many as, according to their own choice, depart from God. He inflicts that separation from Himself which they have chosen of their own accord.”

•    Augustine in the 5th century believed in predestination, yet within that he said some have ‘the gift of perseverance’ and others do not – so some even who were predestined could fall away.

•    Martin Luther wrote, in his Commentary on 2 Peter 2:22: “Through baptism these people entered into a pure life of faith and love. Now they fall away into unbelief.

•    In Luther’s commentary on Galatians, 5:4 he wrote: “Verse 4, “Ye are fallen from grace” means you are no longer in the kingdom or condition of grace. When a person on board ship falls into the sea and is drowned it makes no difference from which end or side of the ship he falls into the water. Those who fall from grace perish no matter how they go about it. … The words, “Ye are fallen from grace,” must not be taken lightly. They are important. To fall from grace means to lose the atonement, the forgiveness of sins, the righteousness, liberty, and life which Jesus has merited for us by His death and resurrection. To lose the grace of God means to gain the wrath and judgment of God, death, the bondage of the devil, and everlasting condemnation.”

•    The “Great Apostasy” at the end of the age describes many believers turning away from God and forgoing their salvation: Matt 24:9-13: “Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations on account of My name. And at that time many will fall away and will deliver up one another and hate one another. And many false prophets will arise, and will mislead many. And because lawlessness is increased, most people’s love (agape) will grow cold. But the one who endures to the end, he shall be saved.” This implies that the one who doesn’t endure til the end will not be saved?

•    A key passage for me on this is the Parable of The Sower: Matthew 13:18-23: “Listen then to what the parable of the sower means:  When anyone hears the message about the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart. This is the seed sown along the path. The one who received the seed that fell on rocky places is the man who hears the word and at once receives it with joy. But since he has no root, he lasts only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, he quickly falls away. The one who received the seed that fell among the thorns is the man who hears the word, but the worries of this life and the deceitfulness of wealth choke it, making it unfruitful” And Jesus said in the Gospels that the branches of the Vine not bearing fruit would be “chopped off and thrown into the fire”, which seems relevant to the seed that got choked and became unfruitful.

•    Other verses that I see supporting this position:

•    Mark 13:13 says: [Jesus said] “All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.” (so he who doesn’t stand firm, won’t be saved?)

•    Rev 2:5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent. (The church was believing and living out their faith, yet Jesus said they will be removed if they do not repent)

•    Rev 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book. (How can you take something away that was never owned by someone? To remove the blessing of being in the book of life, surely the name had to be in there at some point?)

•    Heb 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. (departing….sounds pretty serious).

•    1Tim 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils.

•    Eze 18:24 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.

•    1st Cor 9:27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway/ be disqualified (Wow if PAUL could become disqualified, that should be a healthy challenge to us!!)

•    2nd Cor 5:9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of Him.  (Not salvation by works…but salvation showing itself through a lifestyle that looks like Jesus).

•    1John 2:24 Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.  Interesting use of the word “if”…..)

•    Hebrews 10:26 “For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins (This one is hard…I think it means that if we go on sinning without repentance, we will lose the sacrifice of Jesus’ blood because we choose not to come to him and ask him to forgive us…therefore someone willfully sinning and rejecting Christ’s saving blood would then be held accountable for their own sins as they have opted out of the covenant they made with him at salvation).

•    Exodus 32:33 – And the Lord said to Moses, “Whoever has sinned against Me, I will blot him out of My book.  (God clearly does see this as an option….yes this was pre-Cross, but I still think it shows God’s commitment to allowing us to choose our future).

•    Rev. 3:5,6 – “He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.” (Implies that the ones who do not overcome could be blotted out?)

•    Hebrews 13:5″I will never leave you nor forsake you” is taken from  Joshua 1:5 where the Lord says he will be with the Israelites as they cross the Jordan river. However, Moses delivered this message after God told him he would not be crossing the river due to his sinful act. So the verse is not a blanket statement that God is with us regardless of our actions.

•    1 Chronicles 28:9 – As for you, my son Solomon, know the God of your father, and serve Him with a loyal heart and with a willing mind; for the Lord searches all hearts and understands all the intent of the thoughts. IF YOU SEEK HIM, He will be found by you; BUT IF YOU FORSAKE HIM, HE WILL CAST YOU OFF FOREVER.”

•    Psalm 51:10,11 – Create in me a clean heart, O God, and renew a steadfast spirit within me. DO NOT CAST ME AWAY from Your presence, AND DO NOT TAKE YOUR HOLY SPIRIT FROM ME”.

•    Matthew 24:48-51 – “But if that evil servant says in his heart, ‘My master is delaying his coming and begins to beat his fellow servants, and to eat and drink with the drunkards, the master of that servant will come on a day when he is not looking for him and at an hour that he is not aware of, and will cut him in two and appoint him his portion with the unbelievers where there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” (the man was a “servant” of the “Master” – a follower of Jesus)

•    Luke 14:34,35 – Jesus said, “Salt is good; but if the salt has lost its flavor, how shall it be seasoned? It is neither fit for the land nor for the dunghill” (We are the salt of the Earth when we accept Christ… so it seems possible that we can lose our ‘saltiness’),

•    Mat. 18:23-35: The unforgiving servant has his debt pardoned. Then due to his behavior in treating one of his own debtors harshly, his own debt was reinstated and he was thrown in jail. This implies thT is it possible for God to fairly pardon someone yet based on their actions, revoke his gift.

•    Judas was a disciple. He loved Jesus more than he loved his family (Lk. 14:26), carried Jesus’ cross (Lk. 14:27) and gave up everything to come after Christ (Lk. 14:33). He healed the sick and delivered people (Mat. 10:1-27). His name was in the Book of Life (Lk. 10:20).  Yet due to his sin, his name was blotted out  (Ex. 23:33; Rev. 3:5).

Let me know what you think of all that!!!!!

Vicky

Hey friends,

As the “Once Saved Always Saved?” debate below continues at great pace, here is a photo I took in LA this weekend. Hope you like it!

Vicky