A Video Response To The Recent Debate!

Cheers for such a great conversation and I have to endorse your desire to talk theology!

Of course, when talking “salvation” I think we have to define that we are not completely saved until glorification (in heaven, free from sins presence). So, justification, sanctification and glorification are all about us being saved in the past, present and future. I do not believe God changed heart once He declares us His child. However, we are not fully saved from the power and presence of sin even if we are from the penalty of it. So, I can lose my sanctification! But, does that mean God is no longer my Father? I am not sure I would say one would.

Thanks so much for your love of the scriptures. Have a great worship weekend!

Really enjoyed hearing your thoughts behind why this sort of discussion is worthwhile; thank you! I think that's a great perspective, and the support you provide for your view is very convincing. (The background music is a nice touch too.)

I tend to avoid debating issues in general, but also can really get into it sometimes if I let myself get going. In person, I'm more prone to ask questions that allow people to explore the topic on their own, and then pray that the Holy Spirit works in their heart. However, I wonder if that's just because I think it's more effective or if it's sometimes because it's more comfortable for me.

As for your request for some additional controversial issues to discuss, the following (though not all strictly theological or equally controversial) topics come to mind:
* Are miracles for today?
* Should Christians drink alcohol, use tobacco products, or swear?
* Did tongues die out?
* What is the role of (contemporary) prophesy in the modern church?
* What does it mean to be in the world and not of it? Where do we draw that line?
* Does God want all Christians to be financially prosperous?
* What is the role of the Christian regarding environmental preservation?
* Is the modern practice of tithing a scriptural mandate?
* What should our response and demeanor be toward those who actively work against the cause of Christianity?
* What should our view and practice be concerning divorce in the church?

Oh yeah, and I love that you brought your sushi on-camera! :o)

Nice follow-up. I definitely agree that our theology and doctrine affect our Christian practice. Our conversation is like a volume slider. On the sliding scale of Christian conviction, some of us raise the volume in the area of theology and discussion. Others move the slider to their perfect volume in conviction of practice. The church needs both.

I guess that's why I was asking the questions as to practicality – for those believers that don't feel the conviction to debate theology, but long to see it practiced as the hands and feet of Christ. As someone more familiar with theology talk, I am really edified by those who are strongly practical. Orthodoxy meets orthopraxis – and we're stronger as a body because we hear from both sides. The blood of theology feeds our hands what it needs to do the work well.

SO…for anyone who is not as interested in the theology side of the debate, I personally would love to hear how they work some of the principles into life and the life of the church (local and global). Sometimes I'm too heady, and need practicality to help me remember that the writers of the Bible lived out their theology in practical ways. It is a constant challenge for me personally.

Fun conversations! So much enjoying the variety of voices and perspectives.

Theology topic ideas…

God's justice and how He carries that out today. Deuteronomic justice like in health and wealth preaching vs. a God that interacts, but allows suffering (not sure what the two typical sides on this might be)

God's discipline and what that looks like today. Can we be a generation who accepts no personal discipline? Should we even esteem discipline within the church? How can we as a church carry out discipline and help others to see the benefit of it? Or should we just forget about discipline?

I'm writing through the book of Ruth, and have really focused in on the concept of spiritual covering. Young generations today are often stripped of the protecive covering of fathers and mothers who fear the Lord, of a culture that reveres discipline or even vague godly ways. They have a heart for justice to the nations, but do they have a heart for a just God? Do we respect a God who disciplines? Been thinking in these areas lately.

Great follow-up, but I do have to apologize again, because one area where I countered, I suggested that you used a scripture out of context, when I was the one who did not do my work hard enough and looked at the wrong chapter. Thanks for the forum.

Good list Jonathan. I was actually going to throw the “in the world and not of it” out there too.

Another thought I had is: what is the roll of the law (OT) in a Christians life? Christ said he came not to abolish the law and the prophets but to fulfill it. Does that mean that, while salvation is not through the law, we are still bound by the law?

Thanks! I've thought of a few more since, but I don't want to overload the Internet or fill up the last disk on this server or something… :o)

Also, one of the other topics I thought of was one of a more sensitive nature. I'm not sure what Vicky's intent is in this regard, but I'm guessing that since this is a public forum that anyone could access, it wouldn't hurt to keep to subjects that I could comfortably discuss with my 11 year old sister.

loved this video. :) its so important for our generation to recognize the absolute importance of studying for ourselves & building a solid foundation of sound doctrine.

i love this quote by JI Packer “The purpose of theology is doxology. We study in order to praise.”

may our study, debate, and time spent thinking upon doctrine & theology lead us to give Him the praise He is so deserving of. thanks for letting this space be used for many to get a glimpse of that.

Vicky,

I would like to share with you just were God at work in my life and things the Lord has been teaching me. The summer of 07 came to my hometown Chicago first heard play live and got cd Painting the Invisible really inspired me use theology in terms of whole life worship. Also during that time the Lord was putting on heart to pursue ministry full time was struggling with secular workforce I thought at that time that was content with job.Holy Spirit felt like just seeing coworkers “living the american dream” they wasting their lives on careers,money, status,cars, houses, and did care about things of eternity. After financial meltdown this past fall in 08 was laid off from my job in financial sector. Before I know that job was ending group of my Christian friends challenge me put at the feet of Jesus to listen to Him.Since getting council from Christian leader of how evolve new ministry by using my gift In IT skills for the kingdom. Few other things being a single guy 20s prepare to meet my future wife and mission on global scale. A word of encouragement as our culture is entering into a new season in history, I am hungry to see God work a harvest in generation and stand firm in the faith until the end.

As for good theological topics since once save always follow up topic would a study on church revival from christian history with emphasis on cost of discipleship/theology.

In Christ,

Nathan

Hey!

Somehow I'm not allowed to see the video response…:) Do I need some sort of supporting program? When I push the 'play' button, he starts loading but then… nothing.
Can someone help me with that? THNX!

Hi Vicky and greetings from the Rock of Gibraltar. I agree with your comments regarding the importance of Theology and how we much be much more rigorous in knowing what we declare the be Truth. By the way, do you have any words of advice for anybody who wants to get further training/studies in Theology but is not in a position to attend a bible college/university/seminary? Any good places in the UK? Anything in the distance learning realm?
Thanks,
John Baw.
Gibraltar

Rows and flows of angel hair
And ice cream castles in the air
And feather canyons ev'rywhere
I've looked at clouds that way

But now they only block the sun
They rain and snow on ev'ryone
So many things I would have done
But clouds got in my way
I've looked at clouds from both sides now
From up and down, and still somehow
It's cloud illusions I recall
I really don't know clouds at all

Hey :)
I liked your video blog Vicky! I like how you talk about deep things in a simple way, I'm not great at discussing theology, but I think about questions of theology a lot……I can never answer them though!!
I guess one of the things I want to know and try and understand is the Christian view to suicide. I know that it is probably quite a sensitive subject though. And kind of linked to the once saved, always saved thing. If you get into a serious state of depression, for whatever reason, and commit suicide, would you go to heaven? I don't know if that is a stupid question or not, I hope you don't think so. Would like to know what you think.
Another thing I was thinking about was what Jesus ment by having life to the full. And is it really possible. Life is brutal sometimes! day after day it hammers us down, bringing in so many different trials until we kind of lose sight of what God intended. So how do you have life to the full? How do you get satisfied?
I hope they are not dumb questions to ask here, feels like a safe place to ask them.
Can't wait for your new album!
Lots of Love Lucy x x x

Oh, and I'm going up to oxford in a couple of weeks :) love going up! My friend is working at the John Radcliffe. Hopefully going to go punting! the weather has been pretty nice over here so hope it stays! I'll say hi to the city for you :)

Rob Bell says it like this: “We have to test everything. I thank God for anybody anywhere who is pointing people to the mysteries of God. But those people would all tell you to think long and hard about what they are saying and doing and creating. Test it. Probe it…Don't swallow it uncritically. Think about it. Wrestle with it. Just because [we're] Christians and [we're] trying to articulate a Christian worldview doesn't mean [we've] got it nailed. [We're] contributing to the discussion. God has spoken, and the rest is commentary, right?”
Peace.

Great quote Ej!

HELP!!

I'm really curious about the video and I tried everything I know (that's not much though:)
but I'm still staring at a black screen… What am I doing wrong??

I think a theological discussion on

“The Christian response to ungodly leadership”

would be timely given the strong feelings being expressed by many believers toward our current political administration in the U.S. A thoughtful application of both Daniel and Joseph's behaviors might be a great place to start on this.

Cheers!

Vicky,

I will finally share my thoughts on church history being that salvation is huge topic to discuss. Your video response has inspired me really in several areas: 1) talk about theology debates since our generation rarely digs deep into Christian heritage, 2) know why we believe to understanding doctrine and know how to defend the truth, 3) That good theology would shape our Christian worldview to understand Hebrew, Greek and Hermeneutics as “iron sharpens iron” biblical truth is life or death matter. Thank for taking the time to prepare your response to the scriptures that I shared being so honest.

The role of Doctrine

1. Definition of Doctrine: Taking a reality as revealed through Scripture
A) “Doctrine” comes from the Greek word “to teach or teaching” (didasko)
B) The source of Doctrine: God’s Word 2 Tim 3:16 “All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, 17that the man of God may be competent, equipped for every good work.”

2. Why is Doctrine important?
A) We need it: The Christians closest to Jesus’ “42And they devoted themselves to the apostles’ teaching and the fellowship, to the breaking of bread and the prayers.” Acts 2:42
B) Doctrine is the foundation of our ministry(-eis). Without it we have no rudder.
1 Timothy 4:6 “6If you put these things before the brothers, you will be a good servant of Christ Jesus, being trained in the words of the faith and of the good doctrine that you have followed.”

C) Doctrine preserves us from sin Psalm 119:11 “I have stored up your word in my heart, that I might not sin against you.”

3) Example: Jesus is repeatedly shown as instructing in correction

Matthew 13:54 “and coming to his hometown he taught them in their synagogue, so that they were astonished, and said, “Where did this man get this wisdom and these mighty works?”

Mark 1:22 “And they were astonished at his teaching, for he taught them as one who had authority, and not as the scribes.”

Mark 10:1 “And he left there and went to the region of Judea and beyond the Jordan, and crowds gathered to him again. And again, as was his custom, he taught them.”

Biblical Interpretation:

• Observation
The inductive study method will help you slow down to focus on God's Word, and see what it really says.

* Interpretation
Careful observation enables us to discover what the text means in its context. Since the Bible is its own best interpreter, the more accurate your observation, the greater will be your understanding of God's Word.

* Application
The Creator and Author of life has shown us how to live a satisfying, eternally significant life. Intentional, disciplined observation and interpretation lead you to the profoundly applicable Truth of the Bible.

Key movements in Church History:

Peter Waldo, one of the most effective of the pre-Lutheran Reformers, was a wealthy merchant of Lyons, France. Impressed with the way of poverty and service to Christ as the path to heaven (based on Matthew 19:21), he sold most of his holdings in 1176 and gave the proceeds to the poor. He retained some property to care for his wife and daughters, however. Within a year or so, he was joined by others, men and women, who called themselves the “Poor in spirit,” and undertook an itinerant ministry of preaching repentance and living from the handouts of listeners.

John Wycliffe (1330?–1384) was a biblical reformer, bringing to bear the teachings of Scripture on the practices of the Roman church. He also engaged in Bible translation, and it was largely through his influence that the first English version was produced. Though he personally translated or supervised translation of parts of the Bible, his version was not completed until after his death, by Nicholas of Hereford and John Purvey. Without doubt, its widespread use had an influence on the development of the English language. Wycliffe was educated at Oxford and later became master of Balliol College there. For a while chaplain to the king, with access to Parliament, he was able to reach some of the upper-class English. But he also sought to reach the common people, sending out lay evangelists to instruct them.

John Hus (1372?–1415), professor of philosophy at the University of Prague and preacher at Bethlehem Chapel, did not slavishly depend on Wycliffe, however. The old view that he was influenced by Wycliffe to the point that he simply adopted the views of the Englishman as his own must now be abandoned. A Czech reform movement, dating to about the middle of the fourteenth century, paralleled Wycliffe’s efforts. Hus was in the tradition of the native movement and a product of it. But during the early fifteenth century indigenous and imported varieties of reform joined to form a single development.
When the pope summoned Hus to the Council of Constance to stand examination on his views, the emperor Sigismund ordered him to go and promised safe conduct to and from the council. But when the council condemned him as a heretic and burned him at the stake, Sigismund did not interfere. Like Luther, Hus came to blows with the pope over the issue of indulgences (among other things); but Europe was not so ready for the Reformation in 1415 as it would be a century later.

Girolamo Savonarola (1452–1498) was a forceful preacher against the worldliness and corruption of church and society in Florence. A Dominican, he was transferred to the priory of San Marco in Florence in 1482 and gradually rose in influence and power in the city. His studies in the Old Testament prophets and the book of Revelation helped to make him a powerful preacher against the evils and corruption of society.

During 1513–1518, Luther lectured on Psalms, Romans, Galatians, Hebrews, and Titus and sometime during that period came to an acceptance of the doctrine of justification by faith. He was a Saul turned Paul. He abandoned the prevailing Scholastic and allegorical interpretation for a more strictly literal and grammatical interpretation. His students responded enthusiastically to his pedagogical method. Luther’s influence expanded as he was given charge over eleven monasteries in 1515. In the same year the town council of Wittenberg called him to the pulpit of the City Church, where he continued to minister the rest of his life. From that vantage point, he could carry his views directly to the laity.
The issue that brought Luther to the attention of all Europe was indulgences. Initially, an indulgence provided for the remission of punishment imposed by the Roman Catholic church on someone who was guilty of a specific sin. An indulgence was based on the principle that sinners were unable to do sufficient penance to expiate all their sins. Hence it was necessary for them to draw on the “treasury of merits,” to which Christ, the Virgin Mary, and the saints contributed and which could be dispensed by the pope. In earlier days one might gain an indulgence for risking his life in fighting the infidel during the Crusades. Gradually however, financial sacrifice was accepted in lieu of physical risk. And the financing of the building of churches, monasteries, hospitals, and the like could be designated by the pope as warranting indulgences. During the later Middle Ages, indulgences came to involve not only remission of punishment imposed by the Roman church, but also absolution of all guilt incurred before God.

Great Distinctives of the Lutheran Reformation
Justification by faith alone
Salvation by grace alone
The Bible alone as the authority for doctrine and practice
The priesthood of the believer
Promotion of congregational singing

HULDREICH Zwingli (1484–1531) sparked the Reformation in German-speaking Switzerland. After study at the universities of Bern, Vienna, and Basel, he was ordained and became parish priest at Glarus, where he remained for ten years. At Glarus he studied extensively the classics in the original languages, thus laying the foundation for his future Reformation work. During those years he also served as chaplain to Swiss mercenaries in Italy and began a campaign against Swiss mercenary service. This effort brought him many enemies in some of the poorer areas of the country, where that means of employment was thought to be necessary. Such animosity would be important in the later factionalizing of the country. He also fell under the influence of Erasmus during the Glarus period.
In 1516 he moved to the monastery church of Einsiedeln for a three-year ministry. There he studied the Greek New Testament published by Erasmus. He later claimed that at Einsiedeln in 1516 he had begun to found his preaching on the gospel. Because the monastery church had a well-known image of the Virgin Mary, it had become a pilgrimage center. To such comers Zwingli began to preach against the belief that religious pilgrimages were a means of obtaining pardon.
After becoming priest in the cathedral of Zurich (1519) Zwingli gradually became more open about his views. He broke with the pope and married, and preached openly against celibacy. Popular feeling was roused to such a point that the city council felt that it was necessary to appoint a public meeting for the discussion of religious subjects. When it convened, Zwingli presented his Sixty-seven Articles and was so convincing that the council declared that thereafter all religious teaching was to be based on the Bible alone and that the state would support this principle. Zwingli directed the Reformation in Switzerland along civic lines, with a view to establishing a model Christian community. He persuaded the city council to legislate the various details of the Reformation and supervise the carrying out of its decisions. In other words, he aimed at political as well as spiritual regeneration. Zwingli’s theology put great emphasis on the sovereignty of God and His election unto salvation. He held that the Lord’s Supper contributed nothing to the elect; it was merely a symbol or remembrance of the sacrifice of Christ. He could not agree with Luther, who held that the body and blood of Christ were really present in the Communion.

METHODISM
The Moravians had a direct influence on the establishment of the Methodist movement, which was founded by John and Charles Wesley and George Whitefield. Moravian missionaries exposed the Wesleys to the gospel message while the latter were on a fruitless missionary journey to the New World and had not yet been converted. Later, another Moravian, Peter Boehler, brought the Wesleys to Christ. Shortly thereafter, John Wesley visited Zinzendorf in Germany and then embarked on his lifework. Methodist was the name applied to the “holy club” at Oxford to which the Wesleys and George Whitefield had belonged; they had founded the organization because of their concern over the spiritual condition among the students. Because of the strict rules and precise spiritual methods of the group, they were nicknamed “Methodists”; subsequently the name passed on to the movement begun by the three.
John Wesley (1703–1791) and George Whitefield (1714–1770) were the great preachers; Charles Wesley (1708–1788) though also a preacher, was the hymn writer. Having composed some 7,270 hymns, he is ranked by many as the greatest hymn writer of all ages.
As the Wesleys carried on their revival efforts, they received little encouragement from the Anglican church, of which they were members. Shut out of many Anglican churches, they took a cue from Whitefield, who had had great success in outdoor preaching in America. Tremendous crowds constantly gathered for their meetings.
Early Methodism was characterized by the preaching of present assurance of salvation, development of the inner spiritual life, belief in the attainability of Christian perfection in this life, and a dignified ritual. The Wesleys were Arminian in their theology, but Whitefield was Calvinistic. Originally, John Wesley did not wish to organize the Methodist church as a separate denomination; he set up societies within the Anglican church. But the success of the American Revolution demanded a separation there, and the Methodist Episcopal church was established in 1784. In England, Methodism separated from the Anglican church about the same time.
As well as having a wide spiritual impact, Methodism proved to be a very real answer to the social ills of the day. Spiritually, Methodism was the answer to deism in England, especially among the lower and middle classes. And it met the needs of the new laboring classes in the cities, for whom the Anglican church did not assume much responsibility. Socially, in large measure it retarded forces that in France led to revolution: it provided medical dispensaries, orphanages, and relief for the poor; it stood at the front of the movement for prison reform, the abolition of slavery, and the regulation of industry.

I will respond to your scriptures at Galatians 5:4 and 2 peter 2:22 later.

In Christ,

Nathan

Yay! I can view the video on my own laptop now! All I needed was Adobe Flash Player 10.something:)

Thanks for the video response, Vicky. I think it is a good idea to get people to say what they think about theological issues and get them to think things through. Theology is important. There are seven Ecumenical Church Councils that met to discuss theological matters and define orthodox Christian doctrine. If theology is not important, then those bishops never would have bothered to meet. They would have just let people believe whatever they want and teach it in church. Various heresies were condemned by these councils. The Arian heresy, the Nestorian heresy, the heretical doctrines of Origen, the Monophysite heresy, and the iconoclast heresy are just a few to mention. All of these heresies were condemned by at least one of these seven councils. I think that it is a good idea to start and the beginning of the Church and see just what all happened. How was the Church initially organized? Was the Church Sola Scriptura or did tradition also play a part in the affirmation of orthodox Christian doctrine? What were the officers in the Church? How were doctrinal disputes settled? Look at what was initially taught. St. Vincent of Lerins gave a threefold test for determining truth: antiquity, universality, and consent. What has been always taught everywhere the apostles founded a church and by everyone who is a respected teacher of the Church (or at least, most of the respected teachers of the Church) is the correct teaching. The respected teachers of the Church are the Church Fathers. The “Once Saved, Always Saved” doctrine clearly fails this threefold test. So, of course, it is clearly false. Try this threefold test with other doctrines like the doctrine of baptismal regeneration and the doctrine of the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist. These doctrines clearly pass the test.

Steve

Thanks for the video response, Vicky. I think it is a good idea to get people to say what they think about theological issues and get them to think things through. Theology is important. There are seven Ecumenical Church Councils that met to discuss theological matters and define orthodox Christian doctrine. If theology is not important, then those bishops never would have bothered to meet. They would have just let people believe whatever they want and teach it in church. Various heresies were condemned by these councils. The Arian heresy, the Nestorian heresy, the heretical doctrines of Origen, the Monophysite heresy, and the iconoclast heresy are just a few to mention. All of these heresies were condemned by at least one of these seven councils. I think that it is a good idea to start and the beginning of the Church and see just what all happened. How was the Church initially organized? Was the Church Sola Scriptura or did tradition also play a part in the affirmation of orthodox Christian doctrine? What were the officers in the Church? How were doctrinal disputes settled? Look at what was initially taught. St. Vincent of Lerins gave a threefold test for determining truth: antiquity, universality, and consent. What has been always taught everywhere the apostles founded a church and by everyone who is a respected teacher of the Church (or at least, most of the respected teachers of the Church) is the correct teaching. The respected teachers of the Church are the Church Fathers. The “Once Saved, Always Saved” doctrine clearly fails this threefold test. So, of course, it is clearly false. Try this threefold test with other doctrines like the doctrine of baptismal regeneration and the doctrine of the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist. These doctrines clearly pass the test.

Steve