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Calvinism, Coffee and Contemplation!

Hi there!

I’ve had a great week. Got back from leading worship in San Diego on Monday night, then flew out to Mississippi Wednesday morning. Led worship in Jackson MS last night and just got home to Nashville again. At the weekend I leave to play some shows in Denmark, where I will celebrate my birthday on July 17th! It will be a fun location to turn 21… err… ok so I’m not 21 anymore, but lets just say I’m still in my 20s… No 30 milestone quite yet! : )

I’ve had a few deep theological conversations the past week, trying to figure out what I think about Calvinism/Arminianism – the subject of predestination. Its heavy stuff! So I’m here in my fave TN coffee shop drinking an Americano (I only drink de-caf now and have felt way better the past 2 months since quitting caffeine!), pondering whether I believe in Calvinism or not.

These are the “5 Points of Calvinism” – this is quoted from http://www.calvinistcorner.com. Have a read and let me know if you agree with Calvinism or Arminianism or whether you have your own perspective… Then I’ll share my thoughts!

Love,

Vicky

“There are two mains camps of theology within Christianity in America today: Arminianism and Calvinism. Calvinism is a system of biblical interpretation taught by John Calvin. Calvin lived in France in the 1500’s at the time of Martin Luther who sparked the Reformation. The system of Calvinism adheres to a very high view of scripture and seeks to derive its theological formulations based solely on God’s word. It focuses on God’s sovereignty, stating that God is able and willing by virtue of his omniscience, omnipresence, and omnipotence, to do whatever He desires with His creation. It also maintains that within the Bible are the following teachings: That God, by His sovereign grace predestines people into salvation; that Jesus died only for those predestined; that God regenerates the individual where he is then able and wants to choose God; and that it is impossible for those who are redeemed to lose their salvation.

Arminianism, on the other hand, maintains that God predestined, but not in an absolute sense. Rather, He looked into the future to see who would pick him and then He chose them. Jesus died for all peoples’ sins who have ever lived and ever will live, not just the Christians. Each person is the one who decides if he wants to be saved or not. And finally, it is possible to lose your salvation (some arminians believe you cannot lose your salvation).

Calvinism is known by an acronym: T.U.L.I.P.

Total Depravity (also known as Total Inability and Original Sin)
Unconditional Election
Limited Atonement (also known as Particular Atonement)
Irresistible Grace
Perseverance of the Saints (also known as Once Saved Always Saved)

These five categories do not comprise Calvinism in totality. They simply represent some of its main points.

Total Depravity:
Sin has affected all parts of man. The heart, emotions, will, mind, and body are all affected by sin. We are completely sinful. We are not as sinful as we could be, but we are completely affected by sin.
The doctrine of Total Depravity is derived from scriptures that reveal human character: Man’s heart is evil (Mark 7:21-23) and sick (Jer. 17:9). Man is a slave of sin (Rom. 6:20). He does not seek for God (Rom. 3:10-12). He cannot understand spiritual things (1 Cor. 2:14). He is at enmity with God (Eph. 2:15). And, is by nature a child of wrath (Eph. 2:3). The Calvinist asks the question, “In light of the scriptures that declare man’s true nature as being utterly lost and incapable, how is it possible for anyone to choose or desire God?” The answer is, “He cannot. Therefore God must predestine.”
Calvinism also maintains that because of our s fallen nature we are born again not by our own will but God’s will (John 1:12-13); God grants that we believe (Phil. 1:29); faith is the work of God (John 6:28-29); God appoints people to believe (Acts 13:48); and God predestines (Eph. 1:1-11; Rom. 8:29; 9:9-23).

Unconditional Election:
God does not base His election on anything He sees in the individual. He chooses the elect according to the kind intention of His will (Eph. 1:4-8; Rom. 9:11) without any consideration of merit within the individual. Nor does God look into the future to see who would pick Him. Also, as some are elected into salvation, others are not (Rom. 9:15, 21).

Limited Atonement:
Jesus died only for the elect. Though Jesus’ sacrifice was sufficient for all, it was not efficacious for all. Jesus only bore the sins of the elect. Support for this position is drawn from such scriptures as Matt. 26:28 where Jesus died for ‘many’; John 10:11, 15 which say that Jesus died for the sheep (not the goats, per Matt. 25:32-33); John 17:9 where Jesus in prayer interceded for the ones given Him, not those of the entire world; Acts 20:28 and Eph. 5:25-27 which state that the Church was purchased by Christ, not all people; and Isaiah 53:12 which is a prophecy of Jesus’ crucifixion where he would bore the sins of many (not all).

Irresistible Grace:
When God calls his elect into salvation, they cannot resist. God offers to all people the gospel message. This is called the external call. But to the elect, God extends an internal call and it cannot be resisted. This call is by the Holy Spirit who works in the hearts and minds of the elect to bring them to repentance and regeneration whereby they willingly and freely come to God. Some of the verses used in support of this teaching are Romans 9:16 where it says that “it is not of him who wills nor of him who runs, but of God who has mercy“; Philippians 2:12-13 where God is said to be the one working salvation in the individual; John 6:28-29 where faith is declared to be the work of God; Acts 13:48 where God appoints people to believe; and John 1:12-13 where being born again is not by man’s will, but by God’s.

Perseverance of the Saints:
You cannot lose your salvation. Because the Father has elected, the Son has redeemed, and the Holy Spirit has applied salvation, those thus saved are eternally secure. They are eternally secure in Christ. Some of the verses for this position are John 10:27-28 where Jesus said His sheep will never perish; John 6:47 where salvation is described as everlasting life; Romans 8:1 where it is said we have passed out of judgment; 1 Corinthians 10:13 where God promises to never let us be tempted beyond what we can handle; and Phil. 1:6 where God is the one being faithful to perfect us until the day of Jesus’ return”

This entry was posted on Thursday, July 10th, 2008 at 15:34 and is filed under Uncategorized. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. You can leave a response, or trackback from your own site.

  • christy
    I've believed the doctrines of Calvinism for a couple years now, but have been more involved with arminian groups lately-So I am being forced to wrestle deeply with whether or not I believe these things. I go to intense prophetic prayer meetings where there is a clear word against it in a John the Baptist kind of way. Ha. I have alot of questions and I am willing to lay down my pride and search out the heart of God. Just want to know the Truth!

    Read Romans 9. The whole chapter is great. But I won't type it all out. "What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! For He says to Moses, 'I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.' so then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, 'For this very purpose I have raised you up that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.' So then He has mercy on whomever He wills, and He hardens whomever He wills." This whole chapter is clearly not talking about the exclusive Israel as a nation. I don't believe in replacement theology where you completely replace God's purposes for Israel-but I also don't believe in exclusive theology where you ignore the the clear facts that the gentiles (us) are now called the Israel of God. rom 9:6-8, rom 9:25-26.

    So to me the chapter seems to be saying that God is just and trustworthy and sovereign. "Though they were NOT YET BORN and HAD DONE NOTHING EITHER GOOD OR BAD-in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of His call-she was told 'the older will serve the younger.' As it is written, 'Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.'

    The first time someone presented calvinism to me I told them to get that garbage out of here. It offended me completely...but after taking an honest look at it my heart started to change and it gave me a huuuuge picture of who God is. The calvinistic theology seems to give more glory to God-we can take no credit for our salvation. We must respond yes-but He wills it. Even our righteous acts are as filthy rags before Him. Isa 55-His ways are not our ways and His thoughts are not our thoughts.
  • Regarding recommending the book, _What Love is This_, I cannot disagree more vehemently. It completely mischaracterizes Calvinism. The sources the author uses are not first sources. Rather, he uses sources that are antagonistic to Calvinism to define it. It is possibly the least scholarly work of the last century.

    Study the scriptures.
  • Hi Vicky,

    I recently discovered your blog and am enjoying it. I am a worship leader in Shreveport, LA. The discussion you have going here is great! I would encourage you, however, to base all of your positions on scripture alone. Make sure you study the best examples of Calvinism and the best examples of Arminianism, and then compare them to your Bible. I'll pray for you. Thanks for the forum, and thanks for what you do in the church. You rock!!! Grace and peace.
  • I just started reading your blog (based on a strong recommendation of your writing and musing prowess by Nathan Arnold.) and this seemed as good as any other conversation to jump into.

    So I'm wondering, as you dive deeper in this issue, what is God revealing about himself to you in it? (I'm curious if that part of the discovery could be more profound than the answer to the Calvin/Armenian debate.)

    Ålso, I remember reading John Calvin saying the greatest of theologians could only be at the most 80% accurate. So on his own scale, four out of five could be right (good odds).

    Whenever I am confronted with the an issue as big as this, I am reminded that the Lord's thoughts are higher than my own. In response, though, I can only say that Christ's sacrifice on the cross and his resurrection are fully sufficient to redeem all things, regardless of who they are applicable for. The entire creation groans for redemption, and one day God will make all things as he has intended for them to be, fo r his glory and praise.

    So in our discerning out who the elect are, let us be careful not to diminish the power and sufficiency of Christ's death and resurrection. The same power that raised Jesus from the dead is at work in us raising us to new life today, so let us give glory and praise to the One who redeems and restores and makes new!
  • This is a cool discussion. It's good to talk about these things when the love of Jesus Christ is being exalted and it's done in humility. I meet a lot of Christians on both sides of this conversation. Similar to Vicky I haven't made a 100% commitment to either side.

    For about a year I really believed in Calivinism but must have had a wrong understanding of it because I used (no free will) pre-destination to justify my laziness. I would wake up and know that I was supposed to not just sit around all day but then I would think "maybe today I was pre-destined to be lazy". I struggled daily with an identity crisis. The enemy would lie to me all the time..."you aren't God's child...God pre-destined you for destruction and a life of sin"

    I would feel a stirring inside to share the gospel with someone...then, at the first bit of opposition I would just give up...I would think...oh that road block must have been God (not realizing the opposition was the devil and not my pre-destination).

    I've run into this other places as well. There was a lady at my work that was so firmly Calvinist that I could never inspire her to go deeper with God. She just always said...if I'm supposed to be on-fire...."God will make me on fire." I have no free will of my own. I watched as she drifted further and further away from God.

    Me, having the Holy Spirit inside and knowing the love of the Father...my heart was breaking. I thought...God really doesn't want anyone to perish...this breaks His heart. She used to have joy and talk about Jesus and now all she does is complain and smoke cigarettes. I kept telling the lady...hey.. part of your pre-destination is to have me come up to you and tell you to get out of sin (nicely put though) and surrender your life to Jesus.

    She kept thinking that her desire for sin was out of her hands..."Just like Pharoah, she thought...God must be hardening my heart..what can I do but perish?" No lady, God is not hardening your heart you are being drawn away by your own lusts..and the deceit of the enemy!! God loves you and sent His Son to set you free from the bondage of sin. God hates to see His creation (who was made to worship Him) in sin, compromise, and bondage.

    Jesus chose to come and die for us. Will we choose each day to live sold-out and abandoned to Him? Regardless of our theology (which is not bad to discuss) will we be able to fully trust in Him and lean not on our own understanding? Will we believe for big things in God and for God? Whatever we believe at the end of the day should lead us to more fully living out the Great Commandment and Great Commission!

    Whatever we believe...let's purpose in our hearts to love Jesus with all that we are. Some would say they don't choose to love Jesus. Lot's of Muslims don't choose to love Jesus. I choose to love Jesus and give Him my entire life!!! Thank you Lord for your real GRACE MERCY AND LOVE.

    P.S. Vicky when are you going to do a rap song for Jesus?
  • Rebecca
    You should read " What love is this?" it's against calvinism but it also shows what calvinism is about .
    My Dad read it and said it was a good book about it.
  • Rebecca
    I really don't believe in any of these , because God is a God of unconditional love and grace.
    And although we are free to choose to believe in Him or not , Jesus died for anybody who believes in Him and in his great sacrifice for us.
    Anyone calling the name of Jesus shall be saved ;I not sure what's the exact verse in English but it's said in the Bible and I believe what the Bible say as I'm sure you do.
    So I'm definitly not calvinist , it's just against the loving nature of God.
    In our loving Father ,
    Rebecca
  • I've got to ask the question, why does this matter? Is it really up to us to question who is and who is not going to heaven? I guess I'm trying to get at what purpose does it serve to choose a side? If you are living how you are supposed to be living... glorifying God, is it necessary to try to figure out what His intent is regarding the salvation of others?

    ok, with that being said....

    i love this comment from above. it's spot on logic = "I have a hard time believing in predestination because Jesus said ‘Go out and make disciples of the world’ which is kinda stupid to do if you already know who will and won’t be saved." Amen!

    the other item that i have somewhat of an opinion on is the OSAS issue... in my family of 4 So. Baptist preachers it was always taught you can not lose your salvation, however, if you are not at least trying to live as you should, the question then becomes were you ever really truly saved? for example, the kid at church camp who filled out the form that said he said the prayer and thus was saved, but never really got it, but did it just because his friend joey did it. the idea is people dont lose their salvation if they are truly saved.

    the other half of this arguement is pointed at losing ones salvation. how does this happen? what specific sin has to be committed to lose it? or is it a certain amount of perpetual sin? thus is it the quality or quantity of sin that revokes your christian card? and who is the judge, how do we know if we're getting close to losing it? i could write a whole page about the point alone. But here is the perspective of a friend from the Church of Christ, who believes that you can lose your salvation and it is sin in your life that causes you to do lose it. so i asked her my questions, she didn't have much of a response other than it was just sin. so going with that theory, coupled with the theory that they believe that baptism is the act of salvation (Jesus does it by grace, but only when you're coming up out of the water?) that being we are all sinners and even christians continue to have sin in their lives. The only true way to get to heaven was to have a heart attach & die as you are coming up out of the water!! That's bc within days if not hours you will sin again and thus lose your salvation & have to be rebaptised! needless to say, it was a humourous debate!

    on a side note, i'm no expert, dont study theology, just have a few opinions. you all are way smarter than me. i'm just trying to figure out the best way to live a Christ centered life for the first time ever.
  • Here is something I wrote in my book about this topic.

    Most people do not consider that freedom is not required for responsibilty.


    "Man is responsible not because he is free but because God created man and commands man to obey Him (Romans 9:19-21). How free we are does not determine if we are responsible for our choices before God. How can this be you say? Romans 8:7: “Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be.” Here the scriptures state it is impossible for a sinner, in and of himself, to submit to God’s commands. Are sinners going to hell? Yes! Therefore, their lack of freedom or inability to make a holy choice does not exempt them from responsibility toward God, for God will send them all to hell. This proves that having freedom or free will is not the basis for our responsibility before God, which I believe should silence much needless debate for advocating free will. Freedom and responsibility might work between man and man but scripture clearly states this connection is not so between man and God! Different rules apply with God, because He is the one who creates and commands. He is the standard and His Glory is the goal. If we fall short of giving God Glory, which is the reason for all creation, then we are totally responsible for ourselves before God.

    What I am saying is that our responsibility for our choices are not based on our freedom. True free will does not have to exit in order to make us accountable before our Creator.

    Our responsibility is based on the mere fact that (1) God created us, (2) commanded us, and (3) we have knowledge God and of these commands written in our souls, as do all human beings born into existence. Romans 2:15 states that all human beings have “the law written in their heart.” This means if you are part of God’s creation and have a soul, then you are accountable to God, nothing more is needed! God’s law is written on every human soul; therefore, none is without excuse. This illustrates how the Bible, when making connections between human responsibility and God’s sovereignty, makes no such claims that so-called free will is the answer. Instead, the scriptures state if God created you (Romans 9:19-21), and you have a soul (Romans 2:15), then you are accountable before God; being bound by sin and thus, having no freedom or freewill to choose holiness does not remove your accountability before God! "

    Found in the book: The Divine Decrees, by Oshea Davis
    http://www.osheadavis.com/content/view/83/31/
  • Hey Vicky,

    Nice to see you've been studying theology. I'll state a little bit about the points of Calvinism:

    Total Depravity - I agree with this one, that man is born totally depraved. I differ from Calvinists in that I believe that the means God gives for us to overcome depravity and come to faith in Christ is not 'regeneration,' but grace. Calvinists believe that you are born again (logically, if not chronologically) prior to being saved; in other words, Calvinists deny that spiritual life comes through Christ, and insist that you must be made spiritually alive so that you can hear and receive Him, though Christ Himself said,

    "You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me. But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life." (John 5:39-40)

    and also,

    "Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live." (John 5:25)


    Unconditional Election - The Bible does talk about election at a few points, but overall, very little is said about it. Scripture does indicate that election is not according to our works, nor is it by our will or effort (Romans 9:11-16), but the fact that nothing we do can merit or earn election does not necessitate that God chooses people unconditionally. 1 Peter 1:2 also states that we are, "elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father," indicating that it's not only God's sovereign will, but His omniscience plays into divine election as well.


    Limited Atonement - I definitely disagree with this one. John plainly states,

    "And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world." (1 John 2:2)

    Calvinists often argue that "whole world" here means only the elect, though that honestly seems to be a serious stretch. The objection to atonement being universal is the question of why everyone isn't saved; the answer being that the benefits of the atonement are available and offered to all men, but conditioned upon faith in Christ; so those who do not believe are not forgiven.


    Irresistible Grace - I think that God can override men's wills if He wishes to, but there are apparently also times when He allows men to resist.

    "And when all the people heard Him, even the tax collectors justified God, having been baptized with the baptism of John. But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the will of God for themselves, not having been baptized by him." (Luke 7:29-30)


    Perseverance of the Saints - I'd have to disagree with this one for one simple reason: God warns His people over and over in scripture not to depart from Him. Jesus said,

    "Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me. I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned." (John 15:4-6)

    Similar warnings are also in Romans 11:22, Hebrews 10 (as Nathan cited), Revelation 22:19, and several other places. If God thinks it wise to warn us against falling away from Him, I don't think it wise to conclude that we can't.
  • By the way - I had a great discussion with my pastor about this yesterday.

    There aren't just two sides to this. I realized that I'm not Calvinist. I'm also not Arminian. Another take on the five points from a non-Calvinist, non-Arminian perspective:

    Total Depravity - Absolutely.

    Unconditinal Election - Sure, there are no conditions that can possibly be met to merit salvation except in Jesus Christ - He met them all.

    Limited Atonement - Don't think this is possible since the Bible is clear that "God desires ALL MEN to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth"

    Irresistable Grace - Not sure about this one yet.

    Perseverance of The Saints - Yes, we have eternal security - in what Jesus did on the Cross. Do I think their's an option to fall away? You bet. Do I fear falling away? No - the Cross purchased my security for eternity. I rest there.

    I wish I would have had a recorder - my pastor put things so much better than I am here! He said, "A good Lutheran is a 1 1/2 point Calvinist." I thought that was pretty funny. We belong to a smaller Lutheran branch, very Evangelical and with a high regard for Scripture and Jesus Christ above all else - the Free Lutheran church - you can check it out here.
  • Meghan
    I wasn't feeling well last week and stayed away from the computer. What a discusion I missed!

    Not everyone will make it to heaven, but ANYONE can. To me that sums it up. Jesus came to save us all, knowing that not all would accept His gift. But to say that God created some people with His own hands just to choose to send them to hell. I'm sorry but that is not the God I know. It sounds more like men (and women) trying to make themselves feel better about themselves because God "chose" them.
    Our church is having Bible school this week and the back of the shirts say "I'm a Whosoever" John 3:16 Well I'm a whosoever, and I believe that anyone who chooses Jesus is a whosoever. It is a choice that is open to everyone.
  • Calvinism and Arminianism are two ways of looking at it, but keep in mind they're both systems developed by man. Each one can be defended from a biblical standpoint. So my advice to you would be to stick with the Word of God as your guide. It's cool to ask and wonder how it all works out but I think when it comes to salvation, and many other topics, we just don't have all the answers. God is so much bigger than we can comprehend!

    By the way, how's the iPhone? Did you get upset like I did when they announced the new one that came out was selling for half the price and was twice as fast?
  • Now writing from Denver! : )

    But Oshea... what then do you do with the overwhelming evidence from both Christ and the rest of the new testament writers that say we CAN walk away? Do we just ignore scripture that says action is required on our behalf to retain salvation?

    Matthew 25, Matthew 24:36-51, Hebrews 6:4-8, Hebrews 10:26-31, 2 Peter 2:20, Luke 8, Galatians 5:4, ...

    How about Galatians 5:4? "You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace." I don't believe you can fall from somewhere you haven't made it there... you can't fall from grace if you never received grace.

    When we talk about selection, what about Christ's words in Matthew 22:9? He's talking about the wedding feast, and those who were invited didn't come. His response? "Go to the street corners and invite to the banquet anyone you find." Sure sounds like ANYONE is invited, and we have the option to choose.

    I'm glad scholars have viewpoints on this... but instead of quoting people who address none of the scriptural issues involved lets look at the word eh? : ) I want to know what y'all think of actual scriptures that, many of them the words of Christ, say we can fall away?
  • Folks, do you see just how radical and off the mark someone can get when they cleave to religion instead of Jesus, as if it wasn't finished on the cross because John Calvin had to come around before the truth could be known? That's why I don't like these forums. I dropped out of religious debates a long time ago when I saw in my children's eyes the need for the simple truth of Jesus. Sure, there are teachings in the New Testament, but unless someone views these teachings from the point of simplicity, he will get caught up in teachings and lose the simple truth of the gospel. Go ahead and try to convert people with doctrines of men. See how far you get. You will only make them religious. But when you tell the average person about the love of Jesus on the cross and his resurrection, you can see the hope well up in them. I know I'm kind of going on here, but the prior person's submission made me fervent about this. I won't be coming back to this site because these arguements ruin my peace. And these disputes over doctrines of men, namely Calvin and Arminius,result in no good thing.
  • Hey vicky

    Here is a quote from the famous preacher from London who was calvinist: Charles Spurgeon

    what is the heresy of Arminianism but the addition of something to the work of the Redeemer? Every heresy, if brought to the touchstone, will discover itself here. I have my own private opinion that there is no such thing as preaching Christ and Him crucified, unless we preach what nowadays is called Calvinism. It is a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else. I do not believe we can preach the gospel, if we do not preach justification by faith, without works; nor unless we preach the sovereignty of God in His dispensation of grace; nor unless we exalt the electing, unchangeable, eternal, immutable, conquering love of Jehovah; nor do I think we can preach the gospel, unless we base it upon the special and particular redemption of His elect and chosen people which Christ wrought out upon the cross; nor can I comprehend a gospel which lets saints fall away after they are called, and suffers the children of God to be burned in the fires of damnation after having once believed in Jesus. Such a gospel I abhor. *****

    If one dear saint of God had perished, so might all; if one of the covenant ones be lost, so may all be; and then there is no gospel promise true, but the Bible is a lie, and there is nothing in it worth my acceptance. I will be an infidel at once when I can believe that a saint of God can ever fall finally. If God hath loved me once, then He will LOVE me forever.
  • Hi, I've been thinking more about this and I just had to put two more cents in. Now we're up to four, I think. With all due respect to my dear brothers and sisters in Jesus, I would like to say something. I don't care if I ever hear of John Calvin or Jacob Arminius again. It's not necessary to know their names in order to be a Christian. I think we're getting side-tracked here. It's not important as to how we come to believe. It's just important that we do believe. So if we could lay aside this theology and preach the simple gospel, then I think we are on the right track and people can come to know the Lord. Joe.
  • Hi,I'd like to put my humble two cents in. After twenty-eight years of being a Christian, I finally and happily have given up both sets of theology. I desire to know one thing, and you can guess what that is. Yes, Jesus Christ and Him crucified. My tiny mustard-seed faith in the magnificant cross of Christ gets me all I need. All I have to do is to trust in the death and ressurection of my dear Savior, and He takes care of the rest. My part is to have faith, and His part is everything else. Jesus wants it this way, for he realizes that He is the Savior, and I am not, and we are not. So to sum up my two cents: faith in the cross plus nothing equals God's grace. Faith in the cross plus nothing gives me salvation, sanctification, and ever other "ation" you can think of. Thanks for this opportunity to share. God bless. Joe.
  • Wow... the debate is still raging here! I love it! I'm back from Denmark now and working on a new Blog...

    I feel like all your responses on Predestination have given me much to think about... I'm not ready to take a side yet... or definitely decide a position... I feel like I need to hit the books and do some more study... So thoughts on this matter from me will come later!! Feel free to keep the conversation going here if you have more to say... I will continue to read your posts and will draw from all these comments as I do my own study on the subject to reach a point of decision!

    I love that we can have such deep conversations here!

    Vicky
  • Oops. Hit submit before I was done. So... if you have 2 scriptures that say very clearly opposite things regarding this specific issue, which scripture has priority?

    It is very clear that both beliefs are clearly supported through good exegesis... So how does either side of this debate feel OK with ignoring scripture to prove their point?
  • Wow... Yeah, so I'm sitting in the San Antonio airport and don't have time to respond to it's points, but I couldn't disagree more with Packer's comments and it's approach. It actually reminds me of an American political debate, proving the "right" by attacking the opponent. No bueno.
  • Jan Jensen
    Hi Vicky

    Great Concert at OaseCamp in Denmark. I didn't know your music before wedensday this week but I think I'll buy one of your records ;-)
  • Below is a quote from J.I.Packer ( wrote the book: knowing God) from a forword he wrote for the John Owen's book: The death of death in the death of Christ.

    “[Arminianism and Calvinism] are totally different things, which stand in evident opposition to each other. The difference between them is not primarily one of emphasis, but of content. One proclaims a God who saves: the other speaks of a God who enables man to save himself. One view presents the three great acts of the Holy Trinity of the recovering of lost mankind—election by the Father, redemption by the Son, calling by the spirit—as directed towards the same persons, and as securing their salvation infallibly. The other view gives each act a different reference (the objects of redemption being all mankind, of calling, those who hear the gospel, and of election, those hearers who respond), and denies that any man’s salvation is secured by any of them. The two theologies thus conceive the plan of salvation in quite different terms. One makes salvation depend on the work of God, the other the work of man, one regards faith as part of God’s gift of salvation, the other as man’s own contribution to salvation; one gives all the glory of saving believers to God, the other divides the praise between God, Who, so to speak, built the machinery of salvation, and man, who by believing operated it.”

    Plainly these differences are very different and important!
  • Johnny
    Vicky,

    Glad you're seeking answers from Scripture and not from man. Here's a good website to help guide you in your studies - www.monergism.com

    I find it impossible to "rightly divide the word of truth" and not accept the doctrines found in what we call "Calvinism." Keep in mind it's not John Calvin's teachings that today's "calvinist" adheres to -- it's the truth as found in God's Word.

    As you study keep these 5 things in mind (no pun intended!)
    1. Which system of belief most glorifies God?
    2. How do they line up with Scripture?
    3. How can a person who is spiritually dead believe?
    4. Which comes first at conversion - your spiritual birth or your exercising of faith?
    5. Both systems can't be right.

    The Holy Spirit will lead us into all truth (John 16:13) when we seek His guidance and not let our traditions affect our way of thinking.

    Thanks for you ministry in music. I'm blessed by many of your songs.

    Soli Deo Gloria!
    Johnny

    P.S. Happy Birthday!!
  • Alisha
    I am certainly not wise in these issues by any means, but we must be predestined as said in Eph 1. Paul was talking to the "saints" (verse1) so I believe this goes back to the God knew me before I was born thing.
    Jesus died for the sinners He came to seek and to save the lost, I think that is pretty much all of us. ;) John does say that we love Him because He first loved us so if God loves the world why doesn't everyone choose Him? Why isn't everyone predestined to choose God? We have freewill. I am sure that all of us raised in church have heard this a million times, once more won't hurt,=) God did not make us robots we have to choose Him "to those who recieved Him to those who believed He gave the right to be called children of God" We do have to recieve Him. Then if we do we have to honestly, truely mean it. We can repeat a prayer and do all the stuff and not really have "accepted Christ" the fruit is proof of our salvation and if we are saved then though at times we like sheep will stray we can't become unsaved.
    Look at it like this, if you have asked Jesus into your heart and honestly given Him your life, can you take it back from Him? If you surrender your life to Him and stumble and mess up really bad, is He going to deny your salvation? Take the prodigal son for example he was always the son of his father, just because he ran away he didn't become a slave. Sure, he chose to live like one for a time, but he knew that all he had to do was go home and he could be himself again. God adopts us, we can't go back and change our minds.
    Anyways, on a lighter note everyone has good post! Good job Vicky! Keep up the good work! Looking foward to reading your take on the subject.
    Alisha =)
  • Oshea Davis
    I believe in calvinism, or the total sovereignty of God, even over mans sinning.
    (I will get to this later but the bible says the human freedom is not needed for us to be responsible before God)

    I came to believe in this not because I read an author or heard an argument. My family had a house rule that no one was allowed to get their drivers permit untill they read the bible from cover to cover. ( Im glad my dad made this rule)

    Anyway, back then I never heard of Calivn or Arminianism. In my reading I read Romans Chapter 9. Maybe becaues I am a twin, but the sscriptures plainly saying that God chose to hate one twin and love the other before they had done anything, hit me like a tone of bricks. By the grace of the holy Spirit, I let go of all my preconcived notions and became a calvinist without knowing it.

    Well thats my story.

    Anyway Viciky a very famous calvinist went to your school...John Owen?
    (www.osheadavis.com)
  • By the way - all, there is an hour-long podcast from Stand To Reason (str.org) on "Explaining Free Will and Calvinism." I haven't listened to it yet - but it is probably very interesting and informative - as it always is.

    Here's the direct link:
    http://www.strcast.org/podcast/weekly/070608.mp3
  • Definitely - although I have similar tastes in music to a lot of people - because I like A LOT of types of music. But anyway - we digress...good discussion all!
  • Wow - just checked back to see the discussion, and wanted to thank Ryan for his props! Thank ye sir! I enjoy reading your blogs as well... seems we have similar tastes in music, no? ;-)
  • i love your voice your music just everything u r just Aswome!
  • I haven't read all the discussion - but from what I've seen on here it's been very God-honoring and nobody's been angry about defending either side - so bravo all!

    Seems like I am in the minority here as well, but I just had to share a couple of thoughts:

    We'll never understand these things completely - and for that I am so grateful! But to me, it seems like Calvinists have a hard time accepting the paradoxes and tension within the Bible...

    We are simultaneously sinners and saints. Is God sovereign. Yes. Does God prescribe and/or desire everything that happens? No.

    By saying that God is the cause of all things - including 'evil' things - we do something like say, "Well, it must be my fault that my kid fell off his bike and scraped his knees and arms because I was the one who took the training wheels off." I took the training wheels off - therefore I caused the fall to happen. I don't think it works that way. The kid fell because he hadn't quite figured out how to ride without training wheels. It was "his fault" if you will - not mine because I took the training wheels off.

    And the Bible is clear that God desires everyone to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth (from 1 Timothy) - how does that jive with only some are predestined or elected to be saved? And if only some are predestined to be saved, what's the point of evangelism? - it would seem like the elect would be saved regardless of our spreading His name or not.

    I have a hard time with Perseverance of the Saints as well. Yes, Salvation in itself cannot be lost - as in, the salvation that Jesus purchased on the cross is always available and will never fail - but I believe that it can be rejected. Why else would Hebrews 6:4-6 be written?

    "It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace."

    as well as Hebrews 10:26-31 (excerpts)"...for if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a terrifying expecation of jugement....how much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified and has insulted the Spirit of Grace?"

    Those are tough verses - but they both seem to be speaking to strong warnings to not waver from your faith and confession.

    Another problem with Perseverance of the Saints is that we might adopt the attitude of saying, "Well, I believe in Jesus and what He did - so I must be one of the elected, so, I can do whatever I want because I can't lose my salvation." Dangerous.

    I must admit though, that I love and have many Calvinist friends and acquiantances and many of them have my deepest respect because of the high regard in which they hold the Word.

    On the other hand, I know people on the other side that will say, "Because I was baptized I'm good to go and can't lose my salvation." Probably even more dangerous because they're placing faith in the act of baptism and not the act of the One who makes the baptism worth anything.

    So, forgive my rambling - and all this to say - it is a fantastic thing when Calvinist and Arminian alike hold the Word in high regard, love Jesus as their Savior and proclaim Him at every oppurtunity they get - letting the world know who He is, what He's done and what He can do!

    And, I have to say - mostly because it was a great response and I love the rewording of the five points and partly because I've come into contact with him and enjoyed interaction with him - that Shannon's response was great :-)
  • Bethany
    I've been reading what everyone is saying, and am now more confused than I was to start out!

    But I figure (and I hope no one takes offense to this!)... if God picks only some people, or if he gives everyone the chance... I probably don't need to know that. What I DO know is that Jesus said "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you." Matthew 28:18-20

    So if God picked some people over others, or if everyone has the choice, it's not my job try to figure that out. My job is to go and love and serve others as best I can, and pray that they see Jesus in me.

    As for once saved always saved or not... that freaks me out a little, and after reading that both sides seem to find support in scripture, I will be reading more about it!
  • This is a GREAT discussion guys! Keep it going! If you havent shared your thoughts yet, go ahead!

    I'm boarding a flight to Denmark and its made my day to see such great community discussion on here!

    Vicky
  • Wow! This one actually sprang to mind a few other times when you mentioned that you love debates about controversial topics, and I really didn't think you'd do it. Good for you! :o) And look at all the great conversation this post generated! ...and you're going to give us your thoughts on such a touchy subject? That's pretty generous and daring of you. I think many people in some sort of public position would choose to avoid this kind of discussion. The obvious perception is that it has more potential for disenfranchising people than in helping to gain a following... Kudos to you; that takes guts! I didn't know there were any more rungs left there at the top, but my level of respect for you just ratcheted up one more notch. :o)

    And I love that shirt! I'm sure there's a good story behind it. Nice choice of an image for this post. There's no other discernible text in the photo, so I can't tell for sure if the text is flipped on the shirt or if the whole photo is flipped. It's great either way. :o)

    So far as caffeine goes, I also find that I feel much better when I avoid it, and recently have been able to do that for the most part.

    I enjoyed reading your post on Friday, but this is the first chance I've had to sit down for a few minutes and write some sort of response.

    I think parts of Calvinism can come across as something like “God thinks your ugly (or insert some other reason for Him to pick on you), so you're going to hell... and oh, by the way, there's nothing you can do about it.” That doesn't line up at all with the God I know. However, there are some verses in the Bible that I don't know what to do with. There are places where God chooses some people over others, and even places where He's said to choose an ill fate (more or less) for some people (Pharaoh and Judas come to mind).

    There's part of me that does wonder if some of us will have to be a little ashamed for believing that God could do that or be like that. It doesn't seem like it's something He'd be capable of, and to believe it of Him seems to be a bit of a slap in the face. Kind of like thinking a friend of yours stole something from you because you can't see any other plausible explanation and then finding out later that it wasn't true; that you didn't have all the facts.

    One of my main thoughts on this subject and others like it is that we can't fully comprehend an infinite God. If you get to the point where you think you do, you're probably even more blind than when you first started out with no comprehension at all.

    If your experience of God differs with your interpretation of the Bible, how do we know which to trust? We need the guidance of the Holy Spirit to let us know how to interpret both. Just because I believe in absolute truth doesn't mean that I believe that my grasp of it is absolutely correct. :o)

    I don't want to believe that God give us no choice in our eternal destiny. That we're a cog in some huge cosmic clock with all of our fates chosen for us.

    To me, for real love exist, the one who loves must be able to choose between love and the alternative. If God is love, and if He really wants love from us, I can't see how it could work without giving us autonomy through a choice to love Him in return or to live life some other way. Of course, this perception could be simply due to shortcomings in my human intellect.

    Mark Driscoll brought up an interesting point in a recent sermon. He said that if God let (for example) unrepentant perpetrators of violent crimes into heaven that it would cease to be heaven because they would continue to victimize others. For him to be just, He has to protect the innocent, and to do that, He has to eventually stop those who would continue to pursue evil.

    I like to get back to where the rubber meets the road. Mark Twain said something like, “It's not what I don't understand about the Bible that bothers me...” (It was more the things he understood quite clearly and agreed with but couldn't manage to follow.) For the most part, both Calvinists and Armenians would agree on how we ought to live our lives. Let's agree on that and spend most of our effort trying to make that work. And let's work together; we can't afford to divide over this sort of thing! One things for sure, I'm glad I'm not responsible for the choice of who goes where for eternity and why.

    Ok, I'd better sign off now. Extra kudos to anyone who managed to even skim most of this mammoth monstrosity of a comment. :o)

    ...and I hope you have a great time in Denmark and a great birthday, Vicky!!!
  • R
    To be whimsical about such a serious and heady topic, I would like to quote Forrest Gump:

    [MAJOR SPOILER ALERT!]

    "Jenny, I don't know if Momma was right or if, if it's Lieutenant Dan. I don't know if we each have a destiny, or if we're all just floating around accidental-like on a breeze, but I, I think maybe it's both. Maybe both is happening at the same time. I miss you, Jenny. If there's anything you need, I won't be far away."

    I include that last sentence because it brings out the bottom-line. The bottom-line is that it's about Relationship. Between God and man and our fellow man. I think a lot of the rest is old men trying to add more letters after their names, publishing papers.

    I'll read those papers. Appreciate them for getting my gears churning. But, the final set of Papers I'm gonna settle for is the Word - with all its mysteries and wonders kept as such: things that cause us to gaze in awe into Jesus' face.
  • Mckenzie
    Hi,Vicky I love your accident and your singing.
  • Emma
    Well I am willing to admit.......I have no Idea. I have been asked this before and it is a hard one. All I can say is that I went up into the mountains of germany on wednesday and rught up one of the tallest ones. Standing on the top I thought WOW how did anyone create such beautiful things with so much intricate detail. MY answer to myself was God can do anything and is unfathomable. I don't think I will Know for a lobg time to come if ever and although I would love to have the answers and be able to answer the questions I can't and I am content with Knowing it's all in Gods hands.
  • JESSICA MONTE
    "For God loved the world so that he gave his only Son, so that anyone who believes not perish but have eternal life." Joao 3.16
    God loved the world some people but not all, he did not want that its creation was destroyed by sin. For Jesus to all those who believe in Him and for those who do not believe. Jesus said go around the world and preach the gospel to "all" creature (some not so) if Jesus spoke that the gospel was all I believe in pra Jesus said that, in theory, not calvino. The thesis of calvino is that some people are laid to believe Jesus, who proque believes will be saved. adan and eva sinned chosen because they were predestined to sin or it will be ..... Ç that God pre-prepared the world get to be a chaos, I think not. "I, the LORD, esquadrinho the heart and cause the kidneys, and this to give to each according to his ways and the second the result of their açoes. We chose the salvation or not. And these people dirás: Thus says the LORD : Behold, I put before you the way of life and way of death. " (jer 21:8)
    (You always in a choice of God or baal, salvation or perdition.)

    Say: I live, says the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of ímpio, but where the ímpio become of their way, and alive.
    convert itself,
    convert itself from your evil ways, then, why die, O house of Israel?
    When I say the fair will certainly live, and he, trusting in its justice, the evil practice, the memory will not all courts, but in their rebellion, practicing, he will die.
    When I also say to ímpio: surely die, if he become of his sin, and practice judgement and justice,

    Restituindo that ímpio the pledge, indenizando what furtou, walking in the statutes of life, and not practicing evil, certainly live, not die.

    Of all his sins that memory will not be committed against him, judgement and justice done, certainly live. (Jer 33:13-16)

    between the Calvinism or Arminianism I am not with any hahaha:) I persons understanding the author of my faith. as this writing! "considered what I say, because the Lord will give you understanding in everything."

    xau, hug!

    Ah! great weekend for you: D ...:)
    GOD BLESS
    ps: If you do not understand a word is Portuguese ... sorry! rsrsrs


    3:47 AM Brazil
  • I seem to have this Calvinism v. Arminianism discussion with my pastor every week. I'm the calvinist who walks away laughing. He's the aruminian who gets very defensive. If I worried about the possibility of losing my salvation, I might be defensive too.
    Love this discussion.
  • James Matthews
    Some observations from a long-haired Arminian ...
    1. Calvanists can always defend their position better than Arminians, and that's why there are more Calvanist responses here.
    2. Arminians are more fun to party with.
    3. I like hang with Arminians during church because they seem to be more motivated to win the nations.
    4. Arminian's should use words like 'sovereign' and grace more when in discussions with Calvanists. It helps them breathe easier.
    5. I'm confident that we both get to go to heaven... and the Arminian has a better time on the dusty road!
    6. Q. What did the Calvanist say after he fell down the stairs and broke his leg? A. Phew.... I'm glad that's done with. HAHAHAHAHA
    7. See you theologians in heaven. You are all much smarter than me.
  • Nathan - I'd love to hear your thoughts on my post on Eternal Security over at my blog... you seem like a reasonable enough fellow:
    http://heatlight.wordpress.com/2008/05/07/etern...

    and I do agree - it does seem Vicky attracts the more level-headed sort, huh? blessed to see this sort of convo. going on so peacefully!
  • A great place to start might be the Heidelberg Catechism or get yourself a Spirit of the Reformation Study bible and read the commentaries and notes along with the texts you are studying.

    One great thing about the Spirit of the Reformation Study bible is that it has Heidelberg Catechism, The Belgic Confession, The Cannons of Dort (from where the term TULIP was derived), The Westminster Confession, and the Westminster Larger and Shorter Catechism's.

    But in a concise answer to your question: Yes, I hold to the doctrines of Grace.
  • Well... It appears I am in the minority hear as I am not a Calvinist. : )

    I just can't get on board with T.U.L.I.P. Although I do believe we are totally affected by sin, I don't believe that result in our inability to choose Christ. I believe that Christ, through the Holy Spirit, draws us in but we are given the freedom to accept or decline.

    In Matthew 7 Christ very much sounds as if we have a part in our relationship, a choice. "Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened." I love the "everyone" in that passage... The trouble is, very few will ask.

    Some other verses (if I quote them all this will be a ten page post) are: John 5:24, Ezekiel 18:21-24, John 7:16-17, Matthew 10:32. All clearly stating we have the option to choose.

    I do believe VERY strongly that we cannot choose God without being chosen first. But I believe he choose all of us when he died on the cross. Romans 5:6 "You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly." Now... if we have free will than I believe the other points, aside from Perseverance of the Saints falls apart. Because if we have free will, than we cannot be predestined and there would not be limited atonement. Which leaves only "once saved always saved"

    In regards to once saved always saved it seems very clear (at least to me) that some will "lose", or walk away from their faith. Some verses to look up so I don't get TOO much longer. Matthew 24:10-13, 1 Timothy 6:20-21, 2 Peter 3:17, John 15:6, Matthew 7:21.

    I thought I'd talked about this before... and low and behold I found my old post. :) "The reason I really struggle with “once saved always saved” is it provides an avenue for relaxed living. It opens the door for people to be secure in their eternity regardless of how they live on this earth. If you combine it with the churches approach to salvation (just say these words after me) then what is the need for true life change?

    It is so apparent that this way of thinking has overwhelmed at least the church of America. Look at us. Divorce rates skyrocketing in the church, child abuse issues popping up everywhere, pastors hooked on pornography. But you talk to these people and they are convinced of their salvation… shouldn’t their be a change? It breaks my heart to think that Christ was crucified so that I could say a little prayer and then continue to live a disgusting life.

    We should not live in fear that one misstep will cost us our salvation. There is grace. But should we continuing sinning so that grace should increase? Why are we Christians so afraid of saying that life change is a requirement of salvation?

    It seems to me that over and over in the NT we are told that who we are and what we do is intimately entwined with our eternity. In these two passages it is clear that God is willing to cut us out if we are not producing fruit. I for one am not willing to teach a theology that may allow someone to relax.

    As to “losing” your salvation, I don’t think that is possible. That’s like, I lost the keys to my car. I woke up and they were gone. But one can CHOOSE sin over salvation, and thus nullify their salvation.

    I think of several verses that speak to the ability to leave it behind, and our NEED to continue in the faith in order to gain our reward.
    John 8:31, Romans 11:22, Colossians 1:20-23 all have the words “if you continue”. John 8:31 are words from Christ that say “if you continue” you are my disciples… not if you say you believe.

    Luke 8:11-15 is the parable of the seeds. In it it says “They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.” People will hear AND believe, and then leave it behind. Christ says these folk don’t make it. Shall we then say Christ is false?

    Here’s a great verse… Hebrews 10:26-27, “If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God.” So… we CAN walk away and lose the sacrifice for our sins. Doesn’t sound like once saved always saved to me."

    Sorry this is so long. In the end I think the most important thing is that we seek to fulfill the great commission, going boldly out to proclaim the gospel message of Jesus Christ. So if you are predestined and are out sharing Jesus and living a changed life, or if you do it of your own free will like me, than I think we are honoring Christ and fulfilling his will. That said... my theology of course is right. (for you all to serious, unable to laugh at anything folk that was a joke)
  • Hey Vicky,

    I'd have to say that I fall into the Calvinist camp here. I think at it's core, this idea says that God is more and I am less. I think if I'm going to err on one side or the other, I'd rather let God be bigger.

    Unfortunately, I think a lot of people want nothing to do with Calvinists because of the people who are (though certainly not in this group of commenters!)! My experience is that people get so wrapped up in being Calvinists that they forget to be Jesusists (just made that up). The response to T.U.L.I.P. should be worship, not judgement, which unfortunately, is fairly common.

    Anyway, those are my two cents, but what do I know?
  • Vicky,

    While I agree with some of the comments suggesting that both of these systems are human attempts to explain something completely beyond us, I think it's important to try as long as we throw in a good dose of humility. We do our best to understand God, but in the end He transcends our logical systems. :) In all your spare time ;) you might want to check out the two books, Why I Am Not a Calvinist and Why I Am Not an Arminian. My wife read both and found them helpful.
  • Happy (almost) 21st Birthday, Vicky!

    Great comments on your post. (Oh, and the post is pretty good too!) I love the spirit in which this discussion is taking place. Everyone realizes the humility with which such a subject must be approached. Behind the theological systems are two views of God which are slightly different. Calvinism entails what I call "Big God theology." The God who is big enough to allow the freedom of his creatures to plunge humanity into a perpectual path of sin is great and good enough to provide a rescue that ultimately accomplishes his eternal purpose and will, even out of that apparent tragedy (compare Rom. 8:28).

    Years ago, when I was striving for the sinless perfection I was "supposed" to have as a Christian, I found myself, again defeated, crying out for God to either give me over to destruction or be bigger than my ability to hold on to him: bigger than the confessions, bigger than the formulas, bigger than my feeble will. God's answer came, as it so often does, in my repenting of creating an idol of the "too small" view of God. I discovered the major biblical theme of God's sovereignty, even over my salvation, as many of the excellent responses above have pointed out.

    Genuine Augustinian, Pauline, biblical "Calvinism" recognizes what the Westminster Confession states: that God decrees the end from the beginning without destroying our free will. Though we are spiritually dead and morally disabled, and we require the Spirit to change us before we will repent and receive the gospel (Eph. 2:5; John 6:44), we must choose Christ nonetheless. This is what grace means -- even the faith to believe comes from God (Gal. 2:20).

    Last point: I was reading Jeremiah 36 this morning. In that chapter we have an excellent example of the interplay between God's sovereignty and humanity's freedom. God invites all to repent (verse 3), yet he knows only some will, and that predestined plan is what drives history. There is a WIDE gap between a good God's predestination and what is known as "philosophical determinism." Some Reformers knew this (bilical teachers like Calvin) while others confused the two (Zwingli, in my opinion). But "Big God theology" seems to me to leap from the texts of Scripture as a whole, not just proof-texts. Knowing that our salvation was rooted in his eternal election produces humility, desire to tell the good news to everyone, and increased praise to the God of glorious grace (Eph. 1:11-14).
  • Hey there, Vicky - both a 'fan' of your song-writing, and a friend of a friend (I believe you've met my brother-n-law, McKendree, who was playing keys for Britt Nicole for a while - now with Sonic Flood)... as this is a subject I have given a great deal of thought to, I hope you don't mind if I copy & paste a bit from some of my own blogging on this... I'll try to get it to all make sense.

    I will be the first to admit that I don’t have all the answers - I am convinced of one thing: there is a LOT of mystery in God and God has not chosen to answer all of our questions in the here & now. Look at Job, whom God not only allowed, but even seemed to direct Satan to (”Look at my servant, Job…”) bring trouble upon: God’s response to Job’s “WHY?!” was “Who are you?” - not in the rude sense, but in the sense that He let Job have a BIG revelation of God INSTEAD of a direct answer to his question. And that’s, more often than not, what we really need in those circumstances: we don’t need answers, we need His presence, and revelation.

    For years I struggled with the issue of “Free Will” (when someone first told me of Calvinism I responded that I hoped Calvin was burned at the stake!) but now I struggle with it from the other-side: the Bible says, “But our God is in heaven; He does whatever He pleases” (Psalm 115:3). “Free Will” is a troubling man-made term, but IF “Free Will” exists in any sense, the only being that can have it is God, otherwise it could be possible for us to make decisions which could trump (and as a result “bound” - tied His hands) God’s will, making Psalm 115 no longer true.

    Besides, what is the ‘will’? Isn’t it simply our ‘desires’: what we want to see ‘come to be’? Do we really get to freely choose what those desires are? How much of what we desire comes from 1.) Family pressures, 2.) Cultural influence, 3.) our upbringing, 4.) psychological issues, 5.) social issues, 6 past experiences, 7.) Genetics (alcoholism is - in-part - genetic), etc. Can a will so shaped by so many factors be called ‘free’, when we seem most-times DRAWN to make the decisions we do?

    As a result, the issue that is most often brought up by ‘free will’ proponents is the “If God is truly sovereign, how can we be held responsible?”. A good question, but more a philosophical question than a Biblical one. However, there are rare cases in the Bible where those sorts of questions are asked of God.

    Romans 9;19-20 addresses this question directly: “You will say to me then, ‘Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?’ But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, ‘Why have you made me like this?’”

    The issue in Romans 9 is: if God chooses, how can we be held responsible? The answer seems to be “Who do you think you are?” Basically, God is so holy, so high above our thinking, that this is something we could never adequately understand, so we need to be very careful making such accusations (and such a question is, in all reality, an accusation veiled - that God is not ‘just’). The Bible affirms that God is just. The Bible affirms that He is absolutely sovereign. The Bible affirms that man is responsible for his actions. End of story. All three should be affirmed as true by Biblical Christians, even if we don’t philosophically understand perfectly how the three work together.

    Lastly, I should note: I don’t believe that ‘predestination’ means what many Calvinists think it means. Biblically, predestination is used differently than it often is doctrinally and philosophically. Philosophy and Doctrine/Theology often use the word predestination to talk about any and all events that are planned out before-hand, and are pre-ordained to happen. However, in the Bible, ‘predestination’ is used of believers being conformed into the image of Christ. I know many ‘Reformed/Calvinist’ folks will take issue with me ‘giving away ground’ like that, but it is true - what is predestined, according to the Scriptures, is believers being made like Christ Jesus. Now, that doesn’t get non-Reformed folks off of the hook, as they still have to wrestle with the issue of ‘election’, which is Biblically far more in line with what most Calvinists call "predestination".

    Honestly, though in many ways I consider myself a Calvinist, I often prefer the label “Reformed”. I find my grounding as a Reformed believer far more in line with Richard Mouw’s “Kuyperian Calvinism”, than folks like R.C. Sproul & John McAurther. That is to say, the center of my “Calvinism” isn’t so much the 5 points, but rather the Biblical concept that Abraham Kuyper summarized so perfectly: “There is not a square inch in the whole domain of our human existence over which Christ, who is Sovereign over all, does not cry: ‘Mine!’” Also, with John Piper, I affirm “Man’s chief end is to glorify God and enjoy him for ever.” That is to say, I am ‘reformed’ because I don’t believe the story is really about US: we were made by Him and for Him, and I think that Biblical concept is best brought to the forefront by a ‘reformed/calvinist’ reading of the Word. That said, I’m very uncomfortable with most Calvinist’s emphasis on the 5 points, and even most interpretations of what each of those points actually MEANS.

    Well, recently Jared Hanley, an e-friend I met some time back over myspace, re-worded the 5 points in a way that I could affirm 100%, and I can’t help but share these with you:

    1. We’re so messed up that we need a miracle to restore our broken fellowship with God.
    2. God chooses us, not based on what He knew that we would do, but simply out of love.
    3. Christ gave Himself for the church.
    4. When the light of the gospel fully shines in our hearts, we find God’s love to be irresistible.
    5. Those who truly belong to Christ are able to stand strong only by the grace of God.

    He’s stripped away, at least for me, all of the primary areas of debate, and left behind a simple, modern phrasing which succinctly summarizes some powerful Biblical truths.

    I'd encourage you to read John Piper's "Desiring God", "Easy Chairs, Hard Words" by Douglas Wilson, & Richard Mouw's "Calvinism in a Las Vegas Airport" - I think those books combined will give you a big enough picture of Calvinism to go to Scripture and decide for yourself how much of it you think is Scriptural. Personally, I think if you Biblically maintain that God is absolutely sovereign, and yet man in responsible for his actions, you're on safe grounds.

    Blessings in your search, and keep writing the awesome tunes. Honestly, I actually ASSUMED you were a Calvinist already because of the theological depth of most of your songs!
  • Marques Stewart
    I would be a T,U,P kinda guy. I believe that God does elect to save some people because of his kind will and not anything based on what we do (prior to accepting his Son as Lord). I have a hard time believing in predestination because Jesus said 'Go out and make disciples of the world' which is kinda stupid to do if you already know who will and won't be saved.

    I would also agree with David, that the only thing that matters in the long run is that we as Christians all come together and do our best to exhibit the character of God. Splitting into these micro-groups only helps one being - Satan.
  • David Martin
    First of all you were awesome in MS, thank you so much for coming!

    Now about this issue, it is one that I too have wondered about. I have been involved in many different denominations and opened my mind to many different ideas. I don't know if I would call myself Calvinistic or Arminianistic (which I have never heard of), and the word Christian is used so loosely, lets just say I am a follower of Jesus Christ.

    After stepping back and taking a look a the big picture, it seems to me that the only one winning these arguments is Satin. There are two groups, Christian and non-Christian. These groups are at war and while one side sticks together the other is at war within its own group. How powerful would we be if we all came together with one mind for one purpose? Very! The Devil knows this and he uses everything he can to keep this from happening. Think about it, could we be more divided? Large groups of people take a stands on things that may or may not really be that important and spend all their energy fighting one another instead of agreeing on what they all know is true and defeating the Devil and winning countless ones to Christ.

    I am not disagreeing with Calvinism but the danger that I have seen from friends that are, is that since we are all predestined, there is no need to try and win others to Christ. God has already chosen or not chosen them, so why does it matter. As far as Arminianism...I don't know what they believe but I do go to a Baptist church, maybe that is what we are supposed to believe...anyhow about losing your salvation, I will just say I'd rather be walking with Him when He comes.

    Again, regardless of who is right and who is wrong about this. I believe that we need to put down the books and pick up The Book and spend more time with Christ and less time arguing over what everyone thinks. In fact, I should be having my quiet time right now instead of posting on a blog.

    I hope that this didn't come across the wrong way. I think it is great to discuss what we believe but it is sad when it brings devision.
  • Brad Illian
    I agree with Tom that it's easy to get caught up in Calvinism vs. Arminianism, but at the same time these are ways of helping us understand how we interpret Scripture. I definitely lean toward the "Calvinist" side, but it's important to note that Calvin probably was not a "Calvinist" in the way it is defined today. It's also important to note that this debate did not begin with Calvin and Arminius. For instance on the total depravity debate you have to go back to Augustine and Pelagius (late 4th/early 5th century). Augustine taught that man inherited a sin nature as a result of the Fall, and Pelagius taught that there was no constitutional change in man's nature but he was simply more prone to sin after the Fall. I definitely agree with Augustine, because Eph 2 says that we were "dead in our trespasses and sins." So in other words I hold to total depravity. On the debate of election, if Arminius is right and God chose us based on how we would respond to Him, doesn't that make our salvation ultimately dependent on us? I believe it does, and I cannot agree with that. God chose us based totally on His grace, love, and sovereignty. Romans 9 makes it clear that He has the authority to do so, and though we certainly don't understand it, I believe we have to submit ourselves to His authority and sovereignty and trust Him.
    Regarding total depravity, the classic statement on this is that Christ's death was sufficient for all but only efficient for those who have faith, i.e., the elect.
    Much more could be said, but that's enough I guess! I get pretty passionate about this subject, but try to do so with humility knowing full well that I don't have all the answers (understatement of the year!).
    Thanks for a great discussion topic!
    Brad
  • Hmm..

    I, too, have been wrestling with this issue. I am reading "The Forgotten Spurgeon," by Iain Murray. It deals with Charles Spurgeon's arguments against Arminism, followed by another book, "Spurgeon Against Hyper-Calvinism," also by Iain Murray.

    A friend of mine (a calvinist), recommended (and let me borrow) both of these books; I am only on the first so far, "The Forgotten Spurgeon," but so far it has been great. Very insightful, and also quite challenging.

    Here is my question (sorry, I don't have many answers)

    When Jesus prays in John 17, "thank you Father that I have not lost any of those that you gave me, except the one destined for destruction." And then when he says 2 more times, "those whom the Father has given me,"

    what did he mean by this?

    Also, why did Jesus only pray for those that are His, not for the world?

    Personally, it seems like God chooses some, and does not choose others, and why He does this is a mystery.

    Does this make God unjust?

    Paul says in Romans that God has the right to make vessels for glory and vessels for destruction. This is absolutely a mystery to me, but I, like Paul, will not say that this makes God unjust; it just means that there is something about God that I do not understand.
  • James
    Wow. Great questions and discussion. To me, this question is a prime example of the tension we experience as eternal creatures bound in a temporal world. Both -isms are attempts to reconcile God's eternal perspective and will into our temporal understanding. But it may not completely hold up to the weight of scripture. Grace can certainly be resisted, or there would be no sin. Satan and his 1/3 of the heavenly host dwelt with the Father. They knew God's grace and glory....lived directly in His presence. So did Adam and Eve. Yet, they said no. We see His beauty and glory daily as well....we still say no. If there is no choice, then God becomes responsible for sin, which He absolutely is not. Love is a choice, too. (think Jesus at Gethsemane) Choice is central.

    That said, I fully agree with total depravity and unconditional election. As CS Lewis said (paraphrased) Praise God that He chose me, for I certainly would not have chosen Him.

    Limited Atonement doesn't appeal to me, but I have no solid argument against it. John the Baptist (John 1:29) did say that He takes away the sins of the world. I know He took mine!

    I hold to the Preserverance of the Saints....Daily!!!

    I guess my bottom line is that we cannot explain everything. Sometimes mystery is quite alright being mysterious. Nothing is more mysterious than Salvation!!!
  • PhilAkronOhio
    Hello Vicky,

    I do not agree with Calvinism. If you want to further your knowledge on this subject, I have some books for you. "Debating Calvinism" by Dave Hunt and James White (you get both sides here); "What Love is This" by Dave Hunt; "The Potter's Freedom" by James R. White. This will cover arguments on both sides. I agree with the arguments of Dave Hunt. See for yourself what you think.

    There are many verses in the Bible which appear to oppose each other somewhat, yet all are true. I could cite many verses which point to salvation being available to all and yes, I'm aware of verses which can be used to argue against this. I think salvation being available to all is the stronger argument. The "Debating Calvinism" book is excellent as is "What Love is This?".

    Good luck to you.

    Phil (Akron, Ohio)
  • Looks like I may be the only Arminian who reads your blog... I better take the time to prepare a well thought out defense. : )
  • You know, I sometimes fear that we're aligning ourselves with the teachings of men when we say we're Calvinist (John Calvin) or Arminian (Jacobus Arminius). Paul told the church at Corinth that this is carnal.

    My standing on the TULIP outline is that I find it's points to be supported in scripture and it aligns with my concept of God as having all power and doing His own will in heaven and earth. I have no familiarity with any "arminian" documents.

    As Junior pointed out, any study of these ideas must be compared to scripture, searching the scriptures to see if these things are true.
  • Vicky,
    I'm not sure how much you've read on the subject, but what we call "Calvinism" is based on the 1618-9 Synod of Dordt (Dordrecht), approximately 55 years after Calvin's death.

    The Synod was held to respond to the Arminian document published in 1610, "The Remonstrants".

    This Dutch document is the basis for the English acronym, "TULIP". While easy to remember, most Calvinists would prefer more accurate headings (e.g. Particular Redemption; Effectual, Saving Grace; Security of the Believers).

    The best place to start would be to look at these two documents (first The Remonstrants, then the responding Synod of Dordt) and ask yourself which one is more in line with the whole of Scripture.
  • Oh man, you opened a big can of worms with this one! lol Nice.

    Personally, I hold to:
    -- Total depravity
    -- Unconditional election
    -- Unlimited atonement
    -- Unsure about irresistable grace. I go back and forth on this one myself.
    -- Perseverance of the saints

    I know that doesn't help you at all, but that's where I'm at.
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