Christian feminism is not an oxymoron

I will be brutally honest, the term feminism or feminist, even in it’s Christian form, actually conjures up for me images of a movement which was very agressive in its nature and actually gone into positive discrimination – which is still discrimination of a kind, and the movement that has made it much harder to be a Christian man today – or a man at all. I’m only just being awoken to the real, true meaning of the term. You may have read my blog on the role of women and you know that I’m an egalitarian, very pro the role of women and them having an equal role in leadership, in both church, marriage and society. However I will say one thing about how feminism has been such a blow to masculinity. There is a Maltesers advert, where two girlfriends set up their sleeping (and implied stupid) boyfriends to be leaning on each other and cuddling up whilst they are asleep, so they look stupid. If the opposite was done – women being set up to look stupid in an advert by men – then there would be public outcry, it would be banned and the people who made it (rightly) condemned. But apparently it’s okay to do that to men, it’s okay for us to be made to look stupid and ridiculous. This has to do with my old perceptions of feminism because in some ways although women are still needing further empowerment and participation in society – especially in the church, and should be encouraged to lead and teach and fully participate, and never made to feel second class at all, there is a slight frustration from a lot of men that feminism has made it harder and harder to be a man, or even know what a man is anymore, and made it okay for men to be mocked and patronised. I know a lot of women who say they wish men could be more masculine, but a lot of Christian men I know are afraid to do that too much in case they get called sexist. 

I think what we need to really embrace here and fully reclaim is the true meaning of masculinity and feminiity, what it really means to be both a man and a woman, and celebrate our differences but also allow freedom for women to lead and teach in a church environment if that is their gift and calling. 

I know I have struggled with my male identity – partly because of the culture I’ve grown up in. I’ll be honest that I feel very aware of what I write on this subject because I don’t want to offend anyone, I don’t want any woman who reads this thinking I’m a chauvanist pig or complimentarian. 

I want to help empower women and give them opportunuties equal with men – and equal means not more or less, it means equal, which means men need to be treated and brought up as men, with a more masculine idea of what it means to be a man which at the same time embraces freedoms and equal rights for women. Part of being a man is allowing the women in your life the freedom to be whoever they are called and gifted to be, and treating women as equals – but remembering women are different in some ways, positive ways and at the same time remembering they deserve equal rights and treatment, and equal opportunities.

Good post again Vicky!

Actually, just to add to this – thank you for changing my perceptions and ideas of what feminism actually is. I really needed to hear that. According to the definition you advocate, I would say in many ways Jesus was a feminist – just as he was ‘maculinist’ too. 

Thanks again.

Thank you for this important blog.  I feel so sad that we live in a Christian world in which there is a need to justify yourself as a “reasonable woman” before discussing feminism.  I think something people do not understand is that the abuse/rape/murder of women will only be solved through feminism.  Although it is sad that women did not recieve equal education with men until 1910, I believe it is much more horrific to realise that rape within marriage in the UK only became illegal in 1991.  I think we need to stay focused that women are dying, being mutilated, being abused, tortured and murdered.  In some countries girl babies are murdered, girl children do not get educated and have their genitals mutilated, girls are forced into marraige and women bear a disproportionate burden of poverty.  In this country 25% of women and girls will be abused by a partner and 2 women a week are murdered by a partner.  This is what feminism is actually about.  Jesus so often stood against men abusing women and Paul said that there “There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.” (Galatians 3:28)

The reason people are so against feminism is because their security comes from the power structures we have in place.  Very quickly after the church became established, women yet again were squashed, because it is much easier and more secure to keep the power structures than truly exploring the freedom and responsibility which comes from blasting open the power and domination structures that keep everything moving along so smoothly for men.

It is only as we truly live out Jesus’ radical message of equality for women that we will see the Kingdom come.

Interesting post! I’m very glad for many of the hard-won advances of the feminist movement in the last century or so. (though I think we should not confuse equality with onter-changeability..)

I was wondering if you could perhaps elaborate on this:
Granted, there were no women in the 12 disciples, but to me that is related to the culture of that era and the lack of education available to women, rather than doctrine.

Women were clearly disciples, but none were part of the appointed ’12′ , what significance do you understand the 12 to have, and why do you see education as the issue?

So encouraged by what you have to say Vicky. As God created mankind in his image – male and female – then the god of this age is the only winner when we fail to take hold of our true vocation, ie. male and female, together, revealing God’s glory.

Just as the Church is still coming to terms with the cultural issues of slavery and race, I believe that one day the gospel will eventually challenge and transform the Church’s broken and oppressive understandings of women and men.

I totally get what you mean, and I think you expressed yourself really beautifully. I’m a woman and I say that. :) I too have seen what being confused about what it really means to be male and in the church. Some men seem to think it’s about being overly nice (with little backbone) and others swing the other way and act like they rule over women. God designed us to fill in the gaps in each other, but to also be equal. Keep talking and praying about how you can be a start of a change in the inequality we see on both sides! Jesus will be with you! And if He is for you, who can be against you!

For me, I can tend to picture the radical images you just mentioned, but gratefully even my Sociology book in the current course I’m taking states that the so called “bra burning” may of never actually happened, and that true feminism isn’t what we think it is.
 I think Christian feminism can exist but maybe by another name, as it may cost a church way too much time and money to deal with the “bad press” such a term would conjure up.  It must be done in a truthful, and compassionate way with NO man bashing. We should address problems of course, but always rooted in love, and sometimes that’s tough love.
Of course I want us to be protected, treated, paid, and valued equally. and  I do not believe we are really being treated completely equally. It’s sad but true, the statistics tell us that something is wrong, and so did that brilliant video for International Women’s Day.
 We can avoid “ranty” arguments by taking time to think before we speak, and be guided by the Holy Spirit. Jesus is truth, so let’s not leave Him or His glory out of it. Eat, drink or whatever to do, do it to His glory. :) Also, to know what we are actually talking about, as in research and education on the subject.
 I hope my post interested someone and was not just the same ol’, same ol’. Gob Bless you Vicky for intelligently presenting this topic and many others.

I am open to a feminist interpretation and agree with Derrida on phallogecentrism.  For me it represents acknowledging a bias when engaging with faith and text- a bias that i often struggle/fail to acknowledge as a white male.  In that sense it is a mere stating of the obvious. Yes, some women portray this feminism as an enlightenment and I am not convinced of that other than an awakening to themselves and their own sexuality.

With that said christian feminism is often misunderstood as “what do I take from the text? rather than “what do I bring…?” 

Feminism to me is both a historical movement I remember though my forebears, who provoked and agitated in the 1970′s for feminism to have it’s own space on the academic radar; and a place which is being built for women to live in now and is championed by some leading female thinkers, who I regretfully regard as increasingly male-minded. I am prepared to concede this is perhaps because of a different value system underpinning our idea of gender, rather than because men have expressly sought to influence the feminist argument. 

Recently I feel liberated in the area of feminism and biblical studies. This is because I have resigned myself to the fact that the Bible is true. It actually happened and the events took place in time and space, and were consequently recorded in a compendium of knowledge which has been passed down to us; toyed and tampered with; bits have been expelled and others expanded upon via explicit and exponential expository commentaries, until we are left with the text as we see it in font of us in various editions of said book; or as we chose to listen to or receive it in translation via our favourite preacher, pastor or priest.

It didn’t occur apropos of nothing. I found this concept truly freeing.

Because if we believe these things actually happened, then we can conjure ourselves into Paul’s mind as he wrote his letters, perhaps in a fragmentary way, perhaps with a team of secretaries or scribes to help him, and imagine him taking a consultative approach. I like to think Paul was sensitive enough to women and other sometime-oppressed groups of people who wanted into the church, to not only consider their background past but to think pragmatically, as a strategist, what would be best for the particular community he was addressing moving forward? I think there are intuitive bits of the Bible we miss completely in our modern-day super translation with its inevitable emphasis on textual criticism.

Perhaps most importantly we need to put on the glasses of love before we turn the pages. God’s love. And trust Him to magnify the right issues and trouble spots for us today, and to deal with them appropriately in the Pauline spirit; providing you are reading a letter of Paul of course; and sentitively in the light of over 2000 years of culture having occured since the history took place. With the exception of the Catholic church, who claim a father in the apostle Peter; and by attachment, perhaps the strict Church of England, none of the churches listed in the epistles are still alive and worshiping today. As far as I know the physical congregations cannot be traced by historians with any certainty, although their spirit lives on, through the accounts we have of their lives; the equivalent of listening to one half of a telephone conversation.

I could compare the debate over the role of a woman in the church: because it does come down to the role of each woman, the part she plays and the ways she is able to influence the church body she is part of; to the era when women were finally allowed political franchise and had, from such a time onward, the right to vote. I think we are facing a similar era of change in the Church. If the suffragettes had not gained their right, I think eventually women would have had to be suppressed to a more sufficient degree. The label itself, coined by The Daily Mail, apparently in relation to the victim narrative acted out in the first person by Pankhurst and others, after they had reclaimed the term, presumably gave a slogan to a dissenting movement that already existed in the hearts and minds of women, and, with greatest respect, perhaps also in the hearts and minds of their husbands, brothers, sons and fathers.

Our gender identity, whatever sex we are, does not exist in isolation to the sex we are not. If women feel oppressed, men subsequently suffer. I found a great website dealing with this last year. It basically tackled the issue of individual men suffering with the pain of their gender and inheriting the sinfulness of other men who have raped, abused, mutilated and oppressed women.  The pastoral attempt of the site, which wasn’t a Christian one, was to recognize that men often feel different emotions as a product of these situations, most often anger, which is a response to vulnerability or hurt, and can lead to depression. I’d like churches to focus on these issues more. To let men talk more about what they want being a Christian man to look like, as you already have in your blog.

I think we have to think carefully how best we can dispense grace to men and women of the Church. And then follow a plan of action.

I’ll leave you to decide if I’m a feminist. I think you are right and we miss a lot of who Jesus is and what he stands for when we leave women out of ministry. Sorry this is so long and also so newspapery. Perhaps I’m trying to disguise my real, aggravated feelings. Loved the clip and the whole post blessed me so much.

*stands up and applauds* Thank you, Vicky! I’m all about reclaiming terms, and “feminist” is a label many women (and Christians) should hold with pride. :)

The church is about equality. Just as there should be a place for feminism, there should be a place for masculinity. Both should be allowed to flourish because it is ultimately about our identity in God. It is not a competition or a battle between sexes, the church should be able to see that! 

I think with a lot of radfems it is often more about *separatism* from men rather than superiority *over* them. And even within ‘radical feminism’ there is a spectrum of views. I would, for example, consider myself ‘radical’ in some aspects of my feminism but not others. 

I would also appreciate recommendations of literature on the subject, Vicky :)

Feels encouraging to have this word reclaimed and put into a Christian context. It’s conjured notions, as you rightly say, of aggressive women with hairy armpits for too long!

Let’s rather perpetuate, at Jesus did, social rights and equal opportunities for women. With the onus being on ‘Love one another.’

I’m not a Christian feminist. I’m a Christian and I’m a feminist. I was a feminist first and I wouldn’t be a follower of Jesus if I’d judged him by the some of the stereotypical views of Christianity that are presented n the media – so as you say, Vicky, Christians really should look beneath the stereotypes. 

James, I have the utmost respect for you but if you seriously think the Maltesers advert represents feminism you maybe need to find out a bit more! 

Women and men are pushed into boxes when we allow society or our bit of society to stereotype us according to gender. Both patriarchy and matriarchy are clearly wrong if they declare one group of people should be advantaged because of their physical attributes. Men who don’t conform to the male stereotype propagated by patriarchy – the physically superior hunter/provider – are also damaged by patriarchy and by the Church if it enshrines patriarchy.

Thanks – yes Hannah, I think the fact there is a spectrum means there can be some difficulty on engaging with feminism (and radical feminism). Interesting to hear the idea of ‘separatism’rather than superiority (although separating sounds potentially sad too!) For me, feminism has quite positive associations and I don’t view it as a negative term, but I’m wary of what has become associated with ‘feminist theology’ (or thealogy…)

Vicky – Elaine Storkey is a legend!!! Love her stuff, and interested that she is keen to use the ‘f word’. Will have to check out her book. I’m much more familiar with feminism in regards to language and linguistics (Luce Irigaray etc) so this is foggy territory for me.

Thanks for this Tim. I think my perceptions are more down to lack of education than anything. I’m trying to find the Christ-like perception here. Whatever label you put on it, I am pro-women in leadership/teaching in church, marriage and society. I do think though with the Maltesers advert that if it was done the opposite way in terms of gender it would never get allowed – so why should it be allowed for men? Not saying the advert is feminist, but we need to be careful we don’t go the other way and go against man being men. I will think about this more, and think I might write a ‘testimonial’ about my experiences as a man. Hmmm.

Thanks for commenting Pam! I’m loving getting to know you through Twitter. Hopefully our paths will cross for a cuppa sometime soon!

“Both patriarchy and matriarchy are clearly wrong if they declare one group of people should be advantaged” – absolutely agree!

“I’m not a Christian feminist. I’m a Christian and I’m a feminist.” – I guess I feel ok saying ‘Christian Feminist’ as to me that’s just shorthand for embracing both schools of thought. Like I’d say “I’m an Evangelical Charismatic Christian” rather than the much more long winded “I’m a Christian and an Evangelical and a Charismatic”.  I also like ‘Christian Feminist’ as for me, putting Christian before Feminist emphasises that it’s Jesus who shapes my Feminist ideologies and not the other way around.

Thanks again for stopping by and commenting!

Loved this video, and a thought-provoking post.

Intrigued how the debate is unfolding above me. I agree with the basic feminist principles – equality – but am still convinced that somewhere there is a difference. What that is, and how it impacts, is something I’m thinking about.

What would you recommend in terms of reading that is more broadly evangelical? I’ve read some quite weird stuff, and would love to engage with the kind of more relaxed but determined feminism you espouse, Vicky.

Thanks for your continued posts and input into some good issues!

A suggestion of a book for those interested in a measured Biblical perspective might include

‘Finally Feminist’ by John G Stackhouse Jr. Stackhouse comes from a Brethern perspective and looks at the Biblical, hermeneutic, and cultural issues. He teaches at Regent College Vancouver in replacing the chair for Dr JI Packer.

Christians For Biblical Equality have a an excellent website with articles to download, resources and recommendations for books. Here is the link.   http://www.cbeinternational.org/

oooh, please read Phyllis Trible – ‘God and the rhetoric of sexuality’ and ‘texts of terror’, she’s a brilliant rhetorical critic in the feminist tradition. i like Rosemary Radford Reuther too and Elizabeth Shussler Fiorenza, as well as Elaine Storkey.

the thing to remember is that feminist theology is not monolithic – it’s theologies.  and the minute we stop critiquing the things we read, then we become very unthinking and critical of a whole mode and method of thought without recognising the great things it might bring.  no-one will say stuff we entirely agree with.

sorry, i LOVE feminist theology, so i’d love you to enjoy it too :D

For what it’s worth I’d recommend Finally Feminist too :)

I think the lack of education might be key there – women of that time were probably in no position to be given the sort of responsibility to teach and lead, not inherently because they were women but because they had had no education themselves. (I think that has something to do with Paul’s words about women teaching in 1 Tim as well.) Also, I think Paul’s comment about becoming everything to everyone in order to win a few is important too – if people are going to reject the message because a woman is preaching it, then you could argue that it’s better for a man to preach it and not create an unnecessary barrier. Yeah it sucks for the women, but the spread of the gospel is the bigger picture. Jesus did challenge his culture, and he did directly challenge the sexism of the culture in many ways. But things don’t change overnight, and I think throughout it all he kept his eyes on his larger mission. Equality of the sexes is a huge issue, but it’s nowhere near as big as salvation. Jesus started the ball rolling on equality and lots of other things, but he didn’t get hung up on them when they would conflict with his primary mission. He had bigger fish to fry.

Re ‘Christian feminist’ – I guess for me the feminism came before the Christianity. Logically I suppose I became a ‘Christian feminist’ at the same time as I became a ‘Christian everything else’. But I would not want to be put into a subset of feminism that was just for Christians if such a thing exists.Also, I don’t think I’ve read enough feminist theology to be comfortable with claiming to be a ‘Christian feminist’ – I’d equate that with a certain theological position that – from a lack of knowledge – I’m not sure I share.

I don’t know if any of what follows is helpful but…..

A couple of books – which assume some (but not so much as
to put you off) theological knowledge :

Alvin F Kime (ed) Speaking
the Christian God: The Holy Trinity and the Challenge of Feminism (Grand
Rapids: Eerdmans 1992)

Susan Frank Parsons (ed) The Cambridge Companion to Feminist Theology (CUP2002)

 

Both are collections of essays so contain a variety of points of view (although all are sympathetic): the Cambridge Companion
includes essays by female theologians like Nicola Slee and Janet Martin Soskice

I’m currently trying to think of things that are written in a helpful style but which don’t assume any in depth knowledge of Christian Doctrine or the Bible – if I can think of some I’ll post them as well.
 

If I were doing an overview of the Biblical material I would
want to draw attention to:

-        
Genesis 1:26-28: both Male and Female are in God’s
image

-        
Genesis 2:18-25: emphasis is on sameness /
interdependence not difference

-        
Genesis 3:1-20 Both Adam and Eve are held responsible,
antagonism between sexes results in male domination (which the OT law then
seeks to moderate:.

 

In Christ, Galatians 3:26-29 points to the fact there is
neither male nor female; Acts 2:17-18 Spirit is on both men and women. In early
church women clearly had roles of influence, whatever occasional restrictions
there may have been.

Clearly any consideration of Scripture needs to take account of 1 Corinthians 11:3, 14:34-35 and 1 Tim 2:11-15 as well.

I think it’s very important than women take their rightful place as being equal with men. I think there is a change afoot that’s happening more and more in the church and women are (hopefully) finding it easier to use their gifts, lead others and teach the scriptures. Change might be slower than some would hope for.

However, I also think its very important that in their desire to be treated equally, women still celebrate the differences between the sexes. We are equal – but we are not the same. God created us with clear differences and that’s part of the genius of God. Feminists who try and erase that difference aren’t, in my opinion, helping the conversation move forward.

another great book to read is ‘The Delusion of Gender’ by Cordelia Fine.

not Christian, but an amazing and frustrating and helpful insight into the essential difference debate.  it will blow your mind though :)

I have zero interest in putting the word ‘feminism’ in the same breath, in any way, as Christ.  Put bluntly, it is a severe diminishment of His work, and Purpose, to tie him to pop-culture social justice of any kind.  Do I believe that men are better than women?  Of course not.  Completely different, with different roles, identities, and God-nature?  Absolutely.  When Paul said “In Christ, there is neither Jew nor Greek, male nor female, slave nor free” he did not say that what makes men, men and women, women was to be eradicated.  To coin a Paul-esque phrase…God forbid.  You believe that christianity is male-dominated.  I say no, religion is male dominated…but the males don’t TEACH masculinely, at all.  The religion of christianity-which is in no way the same thing as the REALITY of Christ-has become largely effeminate, and most of the descriptors and monikers describing Christ these days reflect that shift.  It’s not a helpful shift, universally speaking.  The Lion of Judah is not a kitty cat.  He loves us, and I love my wife.  But God help anyone who tries to do her harm, because they will have to deal with-NOT a kind, gentle, meek and mild milquetoast husband, but a dangerous, brutal, fighter who will absolutely not relent, not find a compromise, not give an inch of ground to anything that seeks to do her harm.  I deeply respect women.  But you guys are different…and you’re supposed to be.

I totally describe myself as a Christian feminist, but I care about equal rights for everyone, not just women. But the problem is that, largely speaking (though not exclusively) it is still women who are being disadvantaged in both church and society. 

In response to Jteal – I don’t think that feminism sums up the work or goals of Christ, but I think it is a legitimate response by his disciples to the vision he set before us. It’s not the total of my expression of faith or identity, but ut is an 

I know my husband loves me and would defend me at the drop of a hat, but he doesn’t pretend that I’m some wilting flower that needs him to stand behind me a a ‘brutal fighter’ (sometimes I do, sometimes I don’t). he knows I can stand up for myself. That’s what it means to ‘deeply respect women’, I think. Men and women are not the same, but neither gender should be diminished or stereotyped because of those differences. 

Thank you for posting this, Vicky.  I am an evangelical charismatic Christian who would also say I am a feminist because of the experiences I had as a young adult and subsequently both inside and outside of the church.  Ironically as typing this I am also watching Made in Dagenham which is a film about courageous women who stood up for what they believed in sometimes at great personal cost. I think we do need to revisit notions of both masculinity and femininity and that stereotyping is difficult for all.  Thanks for promoting Sophia too.If noone else has mentioned it an excellent book is White Woman’s Christ and Black Woman’s Jesus by Jacquelyn Grant which   explores differences between feminist and womanist theology and argues that you need to take ethnicity and class into the equation also.

 the Lion of Judah may not be a kitty cat, but i think you’ll find that he *is* a Lamb..

as for women being pronounced different, i suppose it depends what you mean, but most evidence is towards culturally conditioned sexism being the majority of what makes us ‘different’ – so i see your ‘deep respect’ and i raise you ‘deep equality’ ….please.

Hi Kneewax.  Similar to ruthwells’ post, I think the word ‘feminism’ can still be used and I don’ t think it is broken.  There are some negative connotations, but by that reasoning, there would be some strong arguments for not using the word ‘Christian’ or ‘evangelical.’  Maybe the most important bit is to keep discussing and reflecting on why the word does have negative connotations.

I think every theology needs to come with a qualifying prefix. We all have a standpoint from which we view the scriptures and it’s better to be honest about that rather than pretend it doesn’t exist, or that we can do ‘pure’ theology.

as vicky mentioned, jesus counted women among his disciples, and the apostle paul names a woman, junia, as being outstanding among the apostles.

You are preaching christianism or feminism? There was a movement called “liberation theory” they tried to mix marxism and christianism to justify marxists guerrillas, there is also a “church” for homosexuals…both of them say the Bible supports their position…but what about the Apostol Paul ? so they try to underestimate his authority, even though the Bible is full of aguments aganist their positions, not just the Apostol. A woman preaching at St Paul´s cathedral would be a strange thing…The real problem are the effects…they promise paradise but…sounds sweet, nice words :liberation..freedom…the devil is an experienced marketer and publicist..

These groups are looking for social acceptance ( and control) by trying to “get into de Bible” they don´t want to convert to the Bible, they want the Bible to change according to their theories…they want to change the Bible to fit into their antichristian doctrines..if the Bible says something is wrong there is nothing to discuss about it, but it also gives you the way to change; the problem is they don´t want to change, so they try to change the Bible.

I sympathize with many tenets of feminism. I think it raises some very important issues that must be addressed, and I am all for equality between men and women. There are three main reasons I still do not personally identify as a feminist myself, though:

1) With only one exception, every feminist group I have come across is vehemently pro-choice. While I think we can still be instructed by that in that we, the Church, need to do much, much better at caring for women who are pregnant and don’t want to be, I do not think killing unborn babies is justifiable. I have seen a number of feminists view this as a make-or-break issue of feminism, and if they’re right, then I’m not a feminist.

2) With very few exceptions, every feminist group I have come across is energetically pro-gay, bi-, trans-, etc. I cannot support these practices with a clean conscience and cannot stand with mainline feminism on these issues. Again, I think we can still be instructed by this in that we, the Church, must find a more compassionate way to speak about our convictions on these issues, and we must offer real help and hope to people who are confused about their gender (saying, “just stop liking boys” isn’t help), but I don’t believe the Bible allows for Christians to endorse this kind of sexual behavior within the Body.

3) The word “feminist” is a loaded word to so many conservative Christians that I am plenty happy not to wield it. Granted, much of the reason it is reviled is because of misinformation and stereotyping. I would like to fix that–as a movement, feminists don’t hate men, think women are superior, lack a sense of humor, or pick fights just for the fun of it. But even so, it’s very difficult to get through to people, “Yes, I agree with a lot of feminist thinking, but I promise I am actually pro-life and uphold the sanctity of marriage…” I am more comfortable with the term “egalitarian”, in part because the average person doesn’t have a preconceived idea of what that entails, and I don’t have to fight past a lot of bad stereotypes before they will hear me.

Minus the issues of abortion and homosexuality, I think Christian feminism is *theoretically* possible. But because those are real problems–big ones–and because people have so many misconceptions about what feminism is, I doubt that it is *practically* possible under that name. That’s why I’m so hesitant to assume the label, even though I agree with so much feminist theory. I think our society is still very broken in how it treats women, and to varying degrees and manifestations, that is also reflected in our churches.

As per the “emotional/ranty” question–I think of course we want to avoid becoming ranty, but I’d say it is impossible to approach this unemotionally. It’s personal. There’s no way to make it impersonal. Feminist discussions aren’t just about ideas, but about my *life*. Of course I’m emotionally invested in it. If the global church was to suddenly start seriously questioning the fitness of men for ministry, I imagine a lot of men would get pretty emotional about it, too. For healthy, constructive discussions, all we can do is to pray lots, embrace the Sermon on the Mount, try to prefer one another, and sincerely try to hear one another even as we seek the will of God on the matter. None of us knows everything, and I doubt there is anyone from whom we can truly learn nothing.

Why do you say, ‘Go Boudicca’? What has a pre-Christian idolater-as she is on your biblical terms-got to do with Christian feminism?

Playing the game LA Noire really made me like the term feminist! Things were really horrible back then and so I can see why it took a few more aggressive feminists to change society as quickly as they have managed to. They did a really good Job and I think its great to continue in their direction.

It’s truly wonderful to see how the glorious Gospel of Christ has elevated women to a wonderful and precious position in any marriage or society where Jesus has become precious (1Pet 2:7a).  As you mentioned Vicky when we look in the gospels we see the precious and vital part the sisters had with the Lord ”which ministered unto him of their substance”. They found in the eyes of our Lord Jesus Christ that wonderful truth “in Christ there is neither male nor female, bond nor free..”(Gal 3:28). The glory of the Lord can be experienced and expressed in any sister as much as the next guy! The key is not whether male or female but how much do we “know him”. In Philipians 3:7-11 the beloved apostle Paul expresses the deepest desire of his heart, for which he suffered the loss of all things and counted them but dung, even the “excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord”! This is where the power of resurrection life is found.

I’m learning that in fellowship there can be different circumstances we find ourselves in where we can feel squashed or hindered but in these situations we need to remain subject to one another as the scriptures teach us, and pray! Peter says in the context of fellowship and being subject and the difficulties that can arise “casting all your care upon him for he cares for you” (1Pet2:7); knowing this first, that nothing can prevent us from what the Lord is doing in us or calling us to, if we seek him. But sometimes the things we are most sensitive about are the things we have not yet opened to the Lord. When Paul met Christ on the Damascus road he asked two pointed questions “Who are you, Lord?” and “What shall I do, Lord?”(Acts 22:7-10). Some of our sisters have so much to gain if instead of fighting for position or power they would set their hearts on this same thing, what is pleasing to the Lord.

In the church it is clear from scripture that while there is absolute spiritual equality (there not being male nor female), there are certain offices, ministries and giftings that are not given to women. This is related to the Lord’s order not a spiritual inequality. If there is no order in a house strife and confusion abound! The foolish woman in proverbs plucks down her own house (Pr 14:1). I believe this is where feminism leads. Campaigning for our perceived rights is not the way that the Lord has shown us. In every distress he looked to his heavenly Father for deliverance. At the cross he prayed, Father not my will but thine be done. May we come into that more and more, thy (glorious) will be done, Lord in my marriage, in my home, in your church that in all things God would be glorified through Jesus Christ. Jer 31:3

Grow in grace and in the knowledge or our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, to him be glory in the church both now and for ever, Amen.
Sincerely, David

I guess I’m coming in late to the conversation.
I was very encouraged to read your post. I have had many of the same experiences that have been described, in the article and the comments. Being a Christian Feminist myself, my move towards embracing feminism is almost wholly informed by my faith in God and Jesus Christ, because he WAS a radical feminist. Faith has also informed my decision to become pro-choice, pro gay marriage, pro euthanasia.
Also, I believe – have always believed – that feminism was never about being against men, as being pro-woman, and therefore pro-humanity. The best hope for going forward is to become really pro-woman, if our humanity is ever to be saved.
It’s very heartening to find a community of people who are willing to engage in civil discourse, and who feel free to fully express both their faith and convictions about women, women’s roles, and the basic God given worth of women.

If you are a christian feminist read this

1Timothy 2:12-13

Hello – I also prefer the term ‘egalitarian’. However, I would like to see the term ‘feminist’ better understood, in fact, rehabilitated and re-defined – both as an academic exercise and as a kind of ‘calling-card’ to engage with women who feel the Church has let them down or betrayed them (good job, VickyBeeching!) Jesus challenged the entrenched male privileges of his time and the poor old apostle Paul has been totally misunderstood. (And I say that as an evangelical who believes in the authority of Scripture.)

I do also have a concern that men should not be hated or belittled. Some of this hatred and rejection stems from women having been victimized by men. That’s why women and the Church need men like you, James, to speak up. I like your expression ‘celebrate the differences’. Going back to the subtleties of terminology, I object that the Complementarians have stolen that great word ‘complementarity’. I think there is a place for it in Christian egalitarianism – because we are not advocating ‘androgyny’ (saying men and women are identical – boring!) any more than Christian feminism is saying that, actually, women are superior and all men are just pigs…

I think the effect of feminism on male identity is a valid area for reflection & I’m personally v. interested in it : being made to feel uncomfortable and having to reassess one’s attitudes isn’t necessarily a bad thing, but if men feel overly rejected, there may be a backlash that reasserts masculinity in an aggressive way. Jesus was bold enough to clear the Temple, controversial enough to chat to a woman by a well, tender enough to cuddle a little child, secure enough to compare himself to a mother hen.

(PS As a chocoholic, I though the ad was about not sharing your chocolate!!!Very unchristian!)