Deep Thoughts While In The Hair Salon!

I linked to you. Thanks for saying Hi.

I have been wondering that question, and even asked my pastors if, and why we can not preach, or lead, and they said because its in the bible, but there are so many different things people get from the passages, so I was kind of disappointed, but as you said, I/we should allow God to speak to our own hearts, rather than rely on other people’s way of taking the Words.

I’m only 16, but I am called to preach and just received my local minister’s license. I am lucky enough that my home church supports my preaching even though I’m a woman and I’m still young. My pastor told me that now is the best time for women in the church. I think women have a voice and if God wanted them to be silent in the church, He would not call women to preach. I have heard some powerful, spirit-fulled messages come from women. It’s not even just about women embracing new roles in work or women doing anything as well as a man. It’s more about God calling women and God having a place for women in ministry. Women can play a valuable role in ministry and no one should overlook that.

Hey, Vicky.

It’s Wisdom from the All About Worship Podcast. Thanks for starting this blog and posting on it regularly. It’s been very cool.

Your posts are inspiring and encouarging.

I guess you’re not shying away from anything on this blog. You’ve barely been at it and already you throw out a hot topic like women in the ministry.

In response to Jon’s theology I wonder how one comes to the decision on what is to be taken as culturally relevant and what is trans-cultural, or above cultural relevancy? I think all would agree now that slavery is wrong, yet we find nothing in the Bible that speaks to abolish it. In looking at women in the ministry we are given both examples of them leading (Pheobe, Priscilla, Euodia and Syntyche, and Junia) as well as admonishment for proper behavior.

Thus we are left with a few options. We can read all things as “static”, meaning culturally relevancy is irrelevant. In this case we should looking strongly at peripherals in the scripture. Do we literally need to shake dust off our feet when someone rejects Christian preaching, or greet each other with a holy kiss? And why are we ignoring the command for head coverings?

Or we can look scripture in its redemptive nature, seeing it as a whole and looking to where God intends it to go. If we realize that Genesis 1:27 says God created man, “male and female”, then we see God intended the complete man to be a combination. Through the fall this perfection was destroyed, but through Christ’s sacrifice it is (at least in the spiritual world) renewed. So then now is woman still to be subject to man, or she a coworker with man, completing again the earthly representation of God? Should not the church seek to follow the redemptive qualities of scripture and work to restore what was originally created?

So… my belief is that woman ARE called to ministry and CAN speak into the lives of everyone, man and woman. As a pastor I wouldn’t serve in a church that didn’t empower and employ women ministers (yes even head pastors). I believe to eliminate women from the picture is to eliminate half of the character of God, and I’m not willing to do that. If you are a woman called by God, don’t listen to legalistic men to who wish to impose their theology on you. Love them, but don’t listen. Go ahead chasing God’s call for your life.

Not that you needed to hear that Vicky. : )

I love that you are searching for answers with the rest of us. Context, of course, is important, but I don’t believe that “context” is any excuse to ignore the plain, written Word of God. He says very clearly, through Paul, that women are to be silent in the church. God has reasons that we can sometimes see, but just because we don’t understand WHY, that doesn’t give us liscence to decide we don’t need to obey God.
In my church, there is no pastor – I don’t see pastors in Scripture either. The various men in the assembly take part in prayer, ministering of the Word and preaching of the gospel. The women are silent but they have a very important role in silent prayer, because this is what the Bible teaches. It’s not old-fashioned, like some might think, but valid because it’s what the Bible teaches.
I am very curious! How do you “interpret” those Scriptures that plainly say a woman should be silent in the church?
Now, Vicky… I am not talking about music ministry, and I believe that to be something different. I love your music and know that God is blessing many, including me, through you. Thanks!!

Oh… and before anyone freaks out. It’s not a book promoting a free for all on everything. He actually states that God’s stand on homosexuality never changes, thus we can deduct that his ultimate ethic has been reached. : )

Hey Vick(y),

(Sorry for the long reply, but you started it!)

You see what happens when you put metal in your hair? You get the whole country in a theological debate. I am part of a church wrestling anew with this old question. We do believe that men should serve as elders (pastors). We also believe men and women are created equally to image God, and many women’s gifts, abilities and spiritual passion equal or exceed the men.

So why hold such a position? As we know, we have to understand where we are in the redemptive-historical context of Scripture as well as the other factors pointed out so thoughtfully by others in these responses.

I believe using the “no male nor female” verse as your primary interpretive principle, and then reasoning by analogy with slavery, etc. fails to consider some important biblical perspectives. Galatians 3:28 is pressing the point that we are all sons of God through faith, regardless of ethnicity, social status, or sex. By itself, that principle does challenge the status quo of Greek culture, which saw and treated women as lesser creatures. But it doesn’t overturn the accommodated order of things, into which Paul calls us time and time again to live in the present world (eg. Col. 3:18-24; 1 Thes. 4:10-12; Rom. 13)

More importantly, Jesus’ own hermeneutic when teaching on divorce appealed to the creation-distinction of male / female. While his ministry elevated women and challenged the status quo of his culture, he didn’t seem interested in pressing the ultimate eschatalogical reality of “neither male nor female.” We are moving forward in God’s redemptive plan, and that move takes us eventually to the erasure of the creation order, but not yet.

Men and women image God equally, but a father images God differently than a mother. I believe elders (church leaders) are to image God in caring for the church the way God cares for us as Father. That analogy opens up the question: in what sense should women image God as Mother — qualities of nurture and care that come with equal diginity and secondary authority?

Far from misogyny (though pliable in that direction), this position has (among others) the attractive implication of calling men to get off the couch and lead. Far too many men have deferred their calling as prophet, priest and king (lowercase!) and become spiritually passive. In fact, on the other side of the garden it is a man’s nature to punt his spiritual headship. Women seem more naturally drawn to the spiritual. Their role of voluntary submission to the leadership of men (in appropriate contexts, like marriage and church), is clearly an accomodation of will for the love of the brethren (Eph. 5:21), not out of any inferiority or lack, or even the suggestion that women’s “emotional” orientation somehow maladjusts them for leadership. Emotions are not inferior to intellect, pardons to Aristotle.

Finally, I believe this distinction applies only to those God has called as elders. Both your ministry and mine involve teaching, exhorting, speaking prophetically, etc. We do so as servants of Christ, members of a local church and called and gifted individuals with a ministry to thousands without distinction. There is nothing restrictive about that.

When we are called, we should both affirm the call and also search the Scriptures to see how God might want to use us uniquely, so we don’t miss the call! We might miss something wonderful if we only assume that being called to preach, for instance, is a de facto calling as a pastor and must come with that authority.

One tiny footnote: I think the 1 Tim passage on silence for women has to be read against the backdrop of “modesty and self-control.” The issue there is calling women to be markedly different from the women of the culture, for the sake of witness. The further statement of Paul’s principle of men in authority is a support of that point, not a conclusion.

I’m glad you are wrestling with this, and I wholeheartedly affirm your calling and everyone else’s in these replies. I too want to be biblical, and I hope this contribution helps others as yours and others’ thoughts have challenged me.

Still learning,
Bill

I’m encouraged to see everyone sharing their thoughts! Hopefully this Blog will be a community where we can regularly have these kind of discussion and all chip in with our theological thoughts!

When I studied the topic of women in leadership/teaching roles, I felt like the women listed in the Early Church (Pheobe, Priscilla, Euodia and Syntyche, and Junia – Nathan thanks for quoting those names in your comment so I could just copy and paste them here!) were strong proof that women were leading during that era…

I’m always nervous to quote “context” as a means of interpreting scripture as I see people using that lens to justify homosexuality which I believe is wrong, but I do think that specifically in the context of women in leadership, it is a valid hermeneutical argument.

In that historical context, most women were uneducated and few would have been equipped to lead and minister well. Today we all have access to great training so I feel like women do have the needed training to be ministers…

I also look at Deborah in the Old Testament, and Esther and see them stepping into leadship roles – it seems unlikely that God would call 50% of his created population to sit back and be silent…

But that’s just my opinion!! : )

The most important thing in this topic is that women live and serve in a spirit of love and humility…That they respect their pastor and never become feminist or bitter. If your pastor says you cant preach, you must still love and serve him with grace. Love is the key message of the gospel, and theological arguments must never lead us to treat others badly or grow angry…

Just my 2 cents (or 2 pence, as we say in England!)…

Vicky

Great points from everyone. Appreciate the opportunity to join the discussion with such engaged hearts and minds. Hopefully readers will use the comments to go back to the Scriptures with a sharper ability to focus on key texts and ideas. I know I will.

Well, gotta go. Hair’s screaming for attention and there’s unused foil under the sink.

;-) Bill

Vicky,

It is interesting that you brought this up because I was recently thinking about the same thing. I have a twin sister who is a missionary in Africa. She recently came back to the States and is planning on going back in March. Before coming back she shared with some local women about being in the ministry. They, too, were confused about the role they were to play as well as my sister’s role. She preaches and many felt that it wasn’t her place to do that as a woman. There were men that also felt that way. Through my sister, God was able to reveal that women do have a place of leadership within the ministry. My sister explained to me that when Paul wrote those instructions, the women were new Christians and were liable to be almost gullible in their excitement about Jesus. They did not know enough and did not have a secure foundation in their faith to be able to teach and share at that point. But there were many other women mentioned throughout scripture that were solid leaders and teachers of the Gospel. I found all of this interesting when my sister shared with me and how it changed the hearts of so many women and men over in Africa when she shared it with them. God is so good!

Wow, Vicky, this topic sparked a lot of conversation! :o) …and I love the photo with the foil in your hair!

I haven’t gotten (or perhaps taken) the time to study this thoroughly in scripture, and – being a guy – I guess I’m not as directly impacted by the issue in the same way.

However, I’ve certainly enjoyed the ministry of many women in the pulpit – such as Joyce Meyer – and I find it difficult to believe that this is wrong. We’re told that we’ll know a tree by its fruit and all I see there is good stuff.

That said, I have seen some situations – even in churches I’ve attended for many years – where there was a woman pastor and it was a terrible thing – for their family in particular. However, I don’t think that was specifically because of her gender in that role. I’ve seen situations where men were in the ministry and it was terrible for their family. I don’t think gender was the issue in either case.

When it comes down to it, I think the most important thing is that we are each personally guided by the Holy Spirit – and that includes the choice of what aspects of ministry we get involved in. If He is our guide, we’re not likely to be led wrong. :o) Of course, we should be led by scripture as well…

I also know that the one time I got a chance to sit under your ministry, I was greatly encouraged and lifted up. Thanks!

Hey, Vicky–this is John Voelz a.k.a. JVo from cre:ate (the guy who used to be in Folsom where Brian Chandler is now).

I did a message on this last year and it generated some good discussion. If you are interested, I can send you the message notes. Just email me at john@westwinds.org and I will send them out.

When I was doing my undergrad work in Portland, I had a paper to write on Ethics in ministry. I told the prof I wanted to write on “sexism in the church.” He laughed and told me I could only write the paper if I were going to make a case that somehow I believe women were being unethically held back in ministry by men. He laughed again.

That’s exactly what I wanted to do. That’s what I believe.

I wrote the paper.

I also believe there are major errors with people’s stance on women in ministry based on tradition, what they grew up with, and a basic survey of scripture that rips off the biblical authors of their original intent.

Paul is made out to be a jerk towards women when, in fact, he was a huge proponent of women in ministry.

I get really fired up about this.

Keep doing what you do.

hi
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good luck

As a hair stylist its interesting to see what people think about as they are in a salon. Your question reminds me of a friend whos wife lost her voice, although in some mens opinion this could be a blessing, I personally dont think thats its an issue of being male or female rather a question of what God has planned for their life.