Gospel Today Magazine pulled from Lifeway

Since the Southern Baptist Convention (which owns Lifeway stores) does not believe in women’s ordination, it is only appropriate that they would not promote and display (and, thereby, endorse) a magazine promoting women’s ordination. I would be very surprised if I saw this magazine cover in a Lifeway store, and I’m sure that many would object to it. We should applaud the SBC and Lifeway for being true to their convictions.

I really can’t believe the comments! I think that rejecting female pastors is equal to rejecting women’s worth, and this thought from the SBC is in my opinion a patriarchal thought that has nothing to do with God. Furthermore, there is a lot of proof in the Bible that women are allowed to be pastors or leaders.
For example, Paul announced a couple of female leaders. These women led churches. Furthermore, that Jesus only had male disciples is logical, because women didn’t have many rights at that time and therefore couldn’t be influential to people. Moreover, Jesus was surrounded by a lot of women (for example: Mary of Magdala, in the eyes of the pharisees it was unaccepting that Jesus even talked to her). I really want to emphasize that women played a very important role in Jesus’ life. Maybe not in a leading role, but nontheless they were crucial. Think of Mary, who gave birth to Jesus. I can name a lot of arguments against the opinion that we must reject female leaders. I would like to refer to the book “Why not Women?”, written by Loren Cunningham and David J. Hamilton (two men!). This book explains a lot about how the thoughts of unworthy women came into the world. They give a lot of historical context and this is essential to understanding certain Bible passages from Paul or other Bible passages.
The comments from Kevin really hurt me as a woman. Kevin, you said that “men as leaders is an essential role model for boys and men”. I think that’s absolutely true, but what about role models for girls and women? I think that’s also very important, because of the problem that a lot of women face with, namely a lack of self esteem. This is the cause for a lot of problems, like prostitution, (sexual) abuse (often perpetraded by men!) and other things. So I don’t deny that men should be role models for boys (because that can prevent abuse and other problems), but women also should have role models to see that their only job in the world is not to be a housewife but to stand in their power and to find out what God has meant for them.
I want to react to want last opinion. Kevin you said that “the consequences of female pastors would be devastating, and may very well lead to the sort of feminization of the Church that is found in so many mainline Protestant churches”. I don’t know what you assume to be feminine (I think “feminine” is often associated with very negative terms so I don’t even like the word), but why would feminization be devastating? I think both feminity and masculinity cannot be devastating and I do think that there are women who don’t belong in a leading role, but only because they are not meant for a leading role. This is also true for men. There are a lot of mean who want to be pastor, but don’t have the capacities because God has another plan for them. And why do you believe to reject female pastors, even though you have known many great and devout female pastors. Isn’t that proof that there are really women out there who are meant to be a pastor? God gives us our qualities and if a women has a heart for God and is a great leader I think there’s nothing wrong with her being a pastor. I would like to advice you to read books about this subject and especially the book that I mentioned, because I think these opinions about women are devasting for the Church.
I will stop commenting now, but I’m really passionate about this subject and I hate it that these patriarchal opinions still exist.

Sanne said “The comments from Kevin really hurt me as a woman

I really, really, really mean this as gently as possible….

If you make decisions by what “hurts you as a women” you may be making “being a women” a higher calling that following Christ.

Christ hurt, offended, called out lots of things in people that might not seem so bad, may even be morally neutral. Obedience doesn’t always make sense to us, but we are called to be obedient. Sometimes God says, “just because” and doesn’t owe us any explanation.

And I haven’t even really addressed the topic of Vicky’s post… I just think that when we don’t allow scripture to interpret us and challenge us, that is not Christ-like.

Jesus had a very small church because he didn’t have a problem offending folks.

All this to say, don’t come at the topic from a “personal, north-American/European, I have my rights, my culture and society say’s this” sort of view point. That won’t stand up.

Sanne’s only biblical argument is one slight reference by Paul to women in the church, yet this is the same Paul who was insistent that the husband is head of the wife (once again, as Christ is head of his bride, the Church). So, Paul sounds pretty patriarchal. Would you condemn Paul? Would you say that he rejects women’s worth? What exactly was the role of these women that Paul references? We don’t know. You can’t build an argument for women’s ordination on such slight grounds. As for Jesus choosing only males to be his apostles and leaders of his Church, this has to be taken seriously. You can’t dismiss it with “Oh but society back then was patriarchal.” That doesn’t work because Jesus had no problem with challenging societal norms, including the most sacred norms of the Law as interpreted by the Jewish leaders of his time.

As for role models, no one can seriously say that there is not a much greater dearth in male role models than female role models. And what is the primary female role model? Mothers. Men can’t be mothers, but no one is saying that this is matriarchal. Men can be fathers and, as fathers, they are heads of their brides and families (once again, as Christ is head of his bride, the Church). Likewise, in the Church, the male is head of the bride, the Church.

Which position is following closer to scripture? And which is following closer to contemporary ideals of gender androgyny? I think the answer is pretty obvious.

i actually only have a problem with woman worship leaders…

i kid…

I just wanted to try to clarify something I read in the previous comments.

The “feminization of the church” is just a phrase that has become sexy to use lately.

It just describes how modern contemporary church services really do a lot to appeal to women. Men seem to be less interested in church because the service is unrelatable.

The most often used example is worship music. Modern worship is largely these big-anthem-ballad-love-song-fests. While women may love to sing these songs and look forward to it as a weekly activity. Men might be more prone to look forward to softball and food.

It’s just a theory. It has some obvious problems. But it also has a little merit.

I think what Karyne said makes a lot of sense, and I also must admit that Emery’s thought had occurred to me as well… :o)

Kevin,

Acts 18:24-26, Apollos comes to Ephesus, a great and famous Jewish preacher from Alexandria, was teaching in the synagogue. Aquilas and Priscilla heard him and realised he didn’t know the full truth, and so they took him in and taught him – “and did more exactly expound to him the way of God”. I think this scripture is pretty clear that a woman, Priscilla, had teaching authority over a man, Apollos, and not just any man at that, a key leader and preacher in the church at that time.

I am a female student who is seeking to become a pastor within the next couple of years. All of us have different talents that God has blessed us with. Some, like Vicky, are called to minister through song due to their gift to sing and play instruments, some are excellent writers and have been called to give a different spin on the same story so that more people can come to know and understand the life of Christ, and some are called to lead. While I do not know any of you personally, my friends and family can attest to the fact that I am a leader. I tried to teach my fourth grade class when my teacher stepped out to use the phone, I give directions to people that I do not even know who appear to be lost or confused, in a crowded, loud room and can give one yell and everyone will quiet down, I have a certain way of being able to explain things to people where they are at in their walk so that they can come to understand. I know that this gift to lead large groups of people is from God, so why not harness it to teach people they ways of God? I do not care what name you place on this form of ministry, but I am part of the Assemblies and we call these people pastors.

Kevin said “”The Bible is clear that men are head over their wives”"

Conservative churches are all pumped up about Palin leading the country as VP or even President, but the same people think she can’t be a minister? huh?

If she’s president someday Kevin, she can just snap her finger by executive order and you will obey her by law. You ok with that Kevin?

We have more serious things to discuss in this country than to worry about pictures of females pastors on magazines. It’s just stupid.

I grew up in a church with a female pastor and it was completely normal. (or whatever normal is) Only half of the males turned homosexual because of it……(come on, just kidding) :-D

My mother in law is a pastor.
I grew up in the catholic church.. so I have given this issue a great deal of thought.

About the magazines being taken down, hey we can’t fault others because they follow their conscience. I rather have ministries that are true to their beliefs than those who are willing to compromise them all just to follow the culture. Not displaying a magazine really shouldn’t be that big of a deal, it’s not like they started a TV campaign condemning women pastors.

I don’t understand why we put such a strong emphasis on whether women can be “pastors” or not… it’s not like they are living in sin. Sometimes we are much more willing to follow a pastor who is living in sin than a woman.. why?

We like picking and choosing which regulations we want to follow and which ones “were just cultural”. (i.e. women covering their heads, not speaking in public, etc)

We can’t make decisions based on our fears. Will the church attract more women? Who knows? Churches have been filled with women for centuries, so we couldn’t fault “women pastors” for it.

I realize you have a million comments… but

If it bothers the conscience of Lifeway Stores, then why not let it be a Romans 14 thing?

love
bridget

Although I am highly interested in the debate of women as pastors, here are a few questions to chew on:

Worship Leaders bring the Scripture in the songs that they sing and in the lyrics they write. Correct? Therefore, in such songs, they are teaching the congregation truths about God, pastoring them in music, which, along with reading Scripture, is worship. They, at that moment, are pastoring and shepherding the congregation into the throne room. Are they, then, not pastors as well?

Personally, I am all for women as pastors, but I think that if we are going to draw lines, then we should be consistent.

Secondly, on the topic of Lifeway Christian stores, lets take the theological issues out of it. Is it not called Lifeway Christian store for a reason? If it only wanted to be representing the Southern Baptist Beliefs, then shouldn’t it be called LifeWay Southern Baptist bookstore? In your opinion, is it a misrepresentation to only include a handful of doctrinal issues but label them all as Christian? If, by pulling the magazine out, they are making the claim that what is out of their doctrine is not “christian” then we all need to do a re-examination of beliefs that we truly believe make us followers of Christ. Are there any issues, like women in ministry, traditional hymns vs, contemporary music, that define our belief in Christ, or are there a few of these issues that are up for debate? If so, then shouldn’t all Christians be allowed to know both sides and decide for themselves?

There are two issues with this move by Lifeway….first the role of women in church leadership…which has been addressed quite a bit in the comments.
Second, is the hypocrisy of LifeWay. They carry books by Max Lucado and many others whose theology doesn’t match 100% with Southern Baptist theology. They also carry music by artists whose lifestyles would disquaify them from serving in the average SB church, Amy Grant, Sandi Patty (both divorced) and Ray Boltz (openly gay)….but they still sell their stuff. And their biggest superstar, Beth Moore, a big money maker for LifeWay. If someone denies the deity of Christ or proposes multiple ways to God…thats one thing…but when the disagreements are one secondary issues…we need to be consistent in our application of our theological beliefs…if not we’re merely hyprocrites and it makes us look petty.

LifeWay no longer carries Ray Boltz and his music has been removed from the shelves of the store.

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Apollos was teaching an incomplete gospel at the time. Don’t see where she has authority over apollos but she spoke the truth in love no doubt. Seems to be in a private conversation with the 3 of them.