Once Saved, Always Saved?? « Vicky Beeching

Once Saved, Always Saved??

photo-15

Greetings from my desk, with me holding a large mug of coffee, working on my Blog!

Well the debate has been raging on my previous post, with almost 80 comments! Thank you for sharing your thoughts and being so real and so communicative!

Here are my thoughts…. so I hope you will challenge them, be honest and continue to conversation here!

This will be lengthy as it’s such a big topic, so feel free to read (a) NONE OF THIS! (b) some of this (c) all of this…. No hard feelings either way I just want to be thorough in my response to you all!

Comment below to challenge anything I’ve said….. I WELCOME debate and love it when we can talk through our different opinions…that was one of my favorite parts of Oxford University’s theology courses….

Hope my views make sense…. I really do believe in a gentle, loving God…but I also don’t see that His love should look like Him ignoring our own choices and decisions – real love is when we let someone make their own choices and don’t force them or treat them like a machine.. so for me love and justice go hand in hand…

Until the next theological debate, keep this one alive and kicking in the comments!!!

Vicky

ONCE SAVED, ALWAYS SAVED?

Once Saved Always Saved?

• THE LOVE OF GOD: Some argue that a loving God couldn’t allow people who choose him to be ‘lost’ as his love would be contradicted. I believe the opposite: his love has blessed us with the dignity of free will. You love someone when you let them go an choose their heart’s desire. “What a man sows, he will reap” is the system he has set up. If he didn’t love us, he would force us like machines to obey him. Rather he gives us the choice, like the father let the prodigal son choose to take the money and run. He never ceases to love us, yet he honors his decision to give us free will. Adam and Eve choice to disobey him, so the reaped the consequence of being removed from the garden, which to me symbolizes being removed from relationship with him, reaping what they chose to sow.

• GOD’S IDENTITY AS JUDGE: Some say that God’s judgment and his whole identity as Judge is incompatible with his love and mercy. Rather, I believe that his judgment is the expression of his love. As a perfect father he lets us choose our own way. And when he sits as Judge it is to validate our own ability to choose. He gives us the dignity to reap what we sow. I believe he does so with much grief and many tears. But judging us is simply honoring our choices, showing that he follows through with his promise to let us choose our own destiny. So anyone who said yes to him, then decides to change their mind, is free to do so and will reap that choice.

• PREDESTINATION: I do not believe in predestination, or partial atonement. I believe that John 3:16 says “whosoever believes in him will…have everlasting life”. Yes, God is omniscient and knows the end from the beginning. So he knows who will and won’t choose him. I believe we are all predestined as potential accepters of Jesus. Then we get to choose whether we follow through on this. Like when a school teacher tells her class at the start of a semester that they “already have been given an A grade and all they have to do now is keep it”. God marks each of us as his, then we get to choose to sow and reap what we will. So I don’t believe anyone is pre-chosen to be given an un-lose-able gift of salvation. We are free to choose Jesus and also free to un-choose him. (And I know un-choose an un-lose-able are NOT real words!! I just like them!)

• WORKS: I don’t mean to sound like we need to earn salvation like a school kid tries to earn an A grade. It is grace alone. But there are too many verses like James saying “faith without works is dead”. I believe it’s as simple as this – something alive will bear fruit. The fruit is not strenuous or labored for. It is the natural result of something alive, like an apple tree doesn’t strain itself to grow apples, they just happen. If we are alive in Christ it will show itself in fruit/works. Jesus said that the tree that doesn’t bear fruit will be chopped down and cast into the fire. Which sounds like bearing fruit is pretty important!

• CHURCH HISTORY: I think seeing what the early church believed is always very helpful; trying to get as close as possible to the kind of views that the disciples in Acts had. Chinese whispers dilutes the original message, so getting back to the first hand info can help us. Prior to John Calvin, the Once Saved Always Saved doctrine was very scarce – so within the first 1500 years of Christianity there was a holy reverence that one could lose salvation, thus it must be “worked out with fear and trembling” as Paul suggests.

• Irenaeus wrote during the 2nd century: “”And to as many as continue in their love towards God, does He grant communion with Him. But communion with God is life and light, and the enjoyment of all the benefits which He has in store. But on as many as, according to their own choice, depart from God. He inflicts that separation from Himself which they have chosen of their own accord.”

• Augustine in the 5th century believed in predestination, yet within that he said some have ‘the gift of perseverance’ and others do not – so some even who were predestined could fall away.

• Martin Luther wrote, in his Commentary on 2 Peter 2:22: “Through baptism these people entered into a pure life of faith and love. Now they fall away into unbelief.

• In Luther’s commentary on Galatians, 5:4 he wrote: “Verse 4, “Ye are fallen from grace” means you are no longer in the kingdom or condition of grace. When a person on board ship falls into the sea and is drowned it makes no difference from which end or side of the ship he falls into the water. Those who fall from grace perish no matter how they go about it. … The words, “Ye are fallen from grace,” must not be taken lightly. They are important. To fall from grace means to lose the atonement, the forgiveness of sins, the righteousness, liberty, and life which Jesus has merited for us by His death and resurrection. To lose the grace of God means to gain the wrath and judgment of God, death, the bondage of the devil, and everlasting condemnation.”

• The “Great Apostasy” at the end of the age describes many believers turning away from God and forgoing their salvation: Matt 24:9-13: “Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations on account of My name. And at that time many will fall away and will deliver up one another and hate one another. And many false prophets will arise, and will mislead many. And because lawlessness is increased, most people’s love (agape) will grow cold. But the one who endures to the end, he shall be saved.” This implies that the one who doesn’t endure til the end will not be saved?

• A key passage for me on this is the Parable of The Sower: Matthew 13:18-23: “Listen then to what the parable of the sower means: When anyone hears the message about the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart. This is the seed sown along the path. The one who received the seed that fell on rocky places is the man who hears the word and at once receives it with joy. But since he has no root, he lasts only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, he quickly falls away. The one who received the seed that fell among the thorns is the man who hears the word, but the worries of this life and the deceitfulness of wealth choke it, making it unfruitful” And Jesus said in the Gospels that the branches of the Vine not bearing fruit would be “chopped off and thrown into the fire”, which seems relevant to the seed that got choked and became unfruitful.

• Other verses that I see supporting this position:

• Mark 13:13 says: [Jesus said] “All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.” (so he who doesn’t stand firm, won’t be saved?)

• Rev 2:5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent. (The church was believing and living out their faith, yet Jesus said they will be removed if they do not repent)

• Rev 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book. (How can you take something away that was never owned by someone? To remove the blessing of being in the book of life, surely the name had to be in there at some point?)

• Heb 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. (departing….sounds pretty serious).

• 1Tim 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils.

• Eze 18:24 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.

• 1st Cor 9:27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway/ be disqualified (Wow if PAUL could become disqualified, that should be a healthy challenge to us!!)

• 2nd Cor 5:9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of Him. (Not salvation by works…but salvation showing itself through a lifestyle that looks like Jesus).

• 1John 2:24 Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father. Interesting use of the word “if”…..)

• Hebrews 10:26 “For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins (This one is hard…I think it means that if we go on sinning without repentance, we will lose the sacrifice of Jesus’ blood because we choose not to come to him and ask him to forgive us…therefore someone willfully sinning and rejecting Christ’s saving blood would then be held accountable for their own sins as they have opted out of the covenant they made with him at salvation).

• Exodus 32:33 – And the Lord said to Moses, “Whoever has sinned against Me, I will blot him out of My book. (God clearly does see this as an option….yes this was pre-Cross, but I still think it shows God’s commitment to allowing us to choose our future).

• Rev. 3:5,6 – “He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.” (Implies that the ones who do not overcome could be blotted out?)

• Hebrews 13:5″I will never leave you nor forsake you” is taken from Joshua 1:5 where the Lord says he will be with the Israelites as they cross the Jordan river. However, Moses delivered this message after God told him he would not be crossing the river due to his sinful act. So the verse is not a blanket statement that God is with us regardless of our actions.

• 1 Chronicles 28:9 – As for you, my son Solomon, know the God of your father, and serve Him with a loyal heart and with a willing mind; for the Lord searches all hearts and understands all the intent of the thoughts. IF YOU SEEK HIM, He will be found by you; BUT IF YOU FORSAKE HIM, HE WILL CAST YOU OFF FOREVER.”

• Psalm 51:10,11 – Create in me a clean heart, O God, and renew a steadfast spirit within me. DO NOT CAST ME AWAY from Your presence, AND DO NOT TAKE YOUR HOLY SPIRIT FROM ME”.

• Matthew 24:48-51 – “But if that evil servant says in his heart, ‘My master is delaying his coming and begins to beat his fellow servants, and to eat and drink with the drunkards, the master of that servant will come on a day when he is not looking for him and at an hour that he is not aware of, and will cut him in two and appoint him his portion with the unbelievers where there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” (the man was a “servant” of the “Master” – a follower of Jesus)

• Luke 14:34,35 – Jesus said, “Salt is good; but if the salt has lost its flavor, how shall it be seasoned? It is neither fit for the land nor for the dunghill” (We are the salt of the Earth when we accept Christ… so it seems possible that we can lose our ‘saltiness’),

• Mat. 18:23-35: The unforgiving servant has his debt pardoned. Then due to his behavior in treating one of his own debtors harshly, his own debt was reinstated and he was thrown in jail. This implies thT is it possible for God to fairly pardon someone yet based on their actions, revoke his gift.

• Judas was a disciple. He loved Jesus more than he loved his family (Lk. 14:26), carried Jesus’ cross (Lk. 14:27) and gave up everything to come after Christ (Lk. 14:33). He healed the sick and delivered people (Mat. 10:1-27). His name was in the Book of Life (Lk. 10:20). Yet due to his sin, his name was blotted out (Ex. 23:33; Rev. 3:5).

Let me know what you think of all that!!!!!

Vicky

This entry was posted on Friday, March 20th, 2009 at 14:51 and is filed under Uncategorized. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. You can leave a response, or trackback from your own site.

Chip

I think in the end you can prove or disprove any and all doctrine by doctrine. So we have an element of faith to fall back on. Jesus said it is finished ! all that is needed to be done was done through him. It also says that in him we are complete ( having all its part or elements). He entered into the Holy Of Holy's once, he sacrificed himself once, We Are One In Him, (this in itself is a powerful teaching, that is not understood) we are a new creature, we are adopted, we are created after his image. the new creature who is imaged after Christ is recognized as one in Christ ,as he is holy I am holy, as he is without sin i am without sin, "in the flesh no" but in the spirit yes. You cannot teach a physical relationship and base your doctrine on temperal salvation, we have entered into a higher understanding in the spiritual realm. No flesh will enter into heaven and no flesh shall be justified in his sight, we are corrupt after the fashion of Adam, but yet we are pure without spot after the redemption of Christ who took away the penalty of the law which was death and gave us life through and by himself. When you read the New Testament alot of what you are hearing is bringing the jews from a life based on law and self effort to a life based on grace. (an alien concept to them and other religions). So to us who live by Grace are confused because we did not grow up under a law based system.

In a nutshell there is a seperation of the flesh and spirit, a spirit (the new creature) cannot sin, and unfortunatly the spirit has been made subject to vanity(the flesh) which can sin, not willingly, but by the operation of God who has created both to work and do his will. Jesus took away the penality of sin and created in himself one new man fashioned after himself, but he never removed the sin nature from the man(flesh). If you are going to eccept onced saved, always saved it must be understood in faith and with the knowledge of the seperation of the flesh and spirit. Ye must be born again; and truly the first part of the phrase must be understood Once Saved. Let us get that right in our lives before we we worry of the eternal properties of the second part, Always Saved. Sincerely and I enjoy your web site.. EHaskell (author of Once Saved, Always Saved @ Trafford.com

P.S. those who view Hebrew 6 as a nay sayer to there security,need to see it from the view point of the Jews (the Hebrews) in the wilderness who were enlightened and tasted (mana) and were partakers of the spirit and yet they could not enter in because of there rejection (their unbelief,) and once there is the element of rejection or unbelief it is impossible to bring any one to repentance seeing they reject the very core of what is needed to enter in. For God so loved the world that he gave his only son, there is your enlightenedment ;there is your spirit, there is your tasting ,what will you do with it?

naturalidadlady

I don't believe in once saved always saved. Let's read Hewbrews 6:4-6 the bible says it is empossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have becaom partakers of the Holy Spirit and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they fall away to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God and put Him to an open shame. What really took it home for me was Hewbrews 10:26-29 which states for if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but certain fearful expectation of judgement, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. Anyone who has rejected Mosses law dies without mery on the tesitmony of two or three witnesses. Of how much worse punishment do you suppose willbe thought worthy who has tarmpled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covernant by which he was santified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace. The holy spirit is a gift from God and as indicated by some others God will not take away a gift given. I do recall that the spirit of God was taken away from King Saul. Further what hope is there for person who grieve the holy spirit. Remember the spirit of God does not strive with man always and the gift of God is without repentance. We have alot of christians who were given gifts from God and even in disobedience the gift was not taken away, however, that does not mean that they are walking in the way of the Lord and eternal life belongs to them. It simply means that if they had the gift of healing or teaching that gift still remains, however their sould can still be lost because of disobedience. Remember you can only serve one master and if you are not in obedience to God you are not serving him and if you are not his then you must belong to satan.

Jackie0

Great explanation (since I agree with you) the best explanation is simple, wasnt Jesus so simple in explaining the things of Heaven to His children?
If we are alive in Christ then our "works" will show, our tree will produce works/fruit worthy of the Lamb. Jesus himself "cursed" the fig tree that did not produce figs, it withered and died. How can the Son of Man, (who did not come to condemn the world) curse a tree and basically kill it and deprive it from producing more fruit?
We are made in His image and like the fig tree (that was made to produce figs) if our fruit/works do not produce the "fruits of the Spirit" then we will be cursed and cast away.

Dawn_Fallon

I totally agree with all of what you say Vicky!! So refreshing to read that I am not alone in this.

John on Cape Cod

Explaining Loss (Part 2)
Demonic Faith

We've been talking about “explaining loss”. That is, why do some people appear to be in the faith, and in church, and then they disappear, fall totally off the map? We don't see them around any longer. Did they have something and then they lost it? Or did they never have it all? Now the apostle John's conclusion on the matter is this they never had it all. The way he put it is this, “they went out from among us but they were not of us, for if they had been of us they would have continued with us but they went out that they may be manifest that none of them were of us.” His idea that they “are not of us” demonstrates that they were never of us. The point of this message, and as well as the previous message about “dead faith” is we know that in order to be sure that someone is of the faith, they must have the Holy Spirit. If you have the Holy Spirit you going to produce good works.

So, lets lets continue with James, having already looked at “dead faith” which was in James 2:14 to 17. Now we're going to look at what we're going to call “demonic faith” which has an intellectual component and also an emotional component.

James chapter 2 starting at verse eighteen reading verse 19 as well, says
“But someone will say, "You have faith and I have works." Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe--and shudder!

Now, noticed that the demons obviously understand that God exists. They've seen Him in His glory. They have that picture in their mind and they even shudder! There's an emotional response. Which can happen during a genuine encounter with the Lord. I might also add, that an emotional response can happen with something that is not of the LORD – think about people at a rock concert or at the Super Bowl or other sporting event. We need to realize that an emotional response does not complete a genuine faith. It is a component, but in itself cannot be relied upon. The demons are missing a vital component of a trust that causes obedience.

Jesus illustrated a similar phenomena in his parable of the sower. Take a look at Matthew chapter 13 verse 20 and 21. If you remember, the story the sower goes out, casts seed, which is the word of God. The first lands by the wayside, which the devil snatches up. The second seed is the one we're going to examine here. It says, “He who received the seed on the stony places this is the one hears the word and immediately receives it with joy yet he has no root in himself, but endures only for a while for when tribulation or persecution arises, because of the Word, immediately stumbles.” So there an idea hear that there is an emotional response. There is a great joy they when the gospel is heard, however, it does not take root. It does not take root in the heart. It will not bear fruit and the plant shrivels up, once severe testing comes. This is an illustration therefore, a demonic faith.

Let's re-examine James verse 19 – “you believe that there is one God you do well even the demons believe and tremble.” We already made the observation that the demons have seen God . A demonic faith, therefore relies on sight. It could rely on signs, or could rely on experiences, or could rely on feelings. However, what we are called to do? According to 2 Corinthians 5:7 “We walk by faith and not by sight.” Getting this backwards is very dangerous. There is great danger relying solely on some kind of phenomenon, or some kind of experience, and that's not where we want to put our trust.

We need to rely or trust in the truth found in the Word of God. Otherwise, if we have a bad day, we must have a bad God, and on a good day, a good God. However, the Lord is always good, the same, yesterday, today, and tomorrow. His character is immune to economic downturns or flighty, fickle behavior. His character is stable. If we are to have the stability we need, it will come from a trust in God and His Word. Otherwise our our senses will deceive us, as things aren't always what they seem.

So true genuine, dynamic faith is relying on the word of God. This is the word of God, that James says in Chapter 1, to receive with meekness the implanted word, which is able to save your souls. In fact, salvation has two agents working together, which we will develop further when we look at dynamic faith. But I will leave you with this from 2 Thessalonians chapter 2, were Paul was rejoicing at their salvation. Notice the two agents that are work in verse 13. It says a “We are bound to give thanks to God always for you brethren, beloved of the Lord because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth.” So these of the two agents that come to bear in saving faith. The believing in the gospel truth and the work of the Holy Spirit. We'll look at that in more detail next time as we examine how the Holy Spirit is vital to a saving, genuine, dynamic faith.

But for now the question is: Where is your trust? Is it in what God has said, or is it on your experiences? Does this trust in God produce obedience?

brokensoul

Wow. I have to say I dont know if I completely agree with the theological stand but have to say that I am VERY impressed at your thoroughness! All I am going to say is this...if we are truly Christians, our faith is suppose to be a LIFESTYLE not a duty or a choice. We are saved by the GRACE of God. We are called to surrender our lives, hearts, and minds every day as many times as it takes. God extends His grace and mercy to us freely and without reserve. We ARE going to stumble and fail. As much as I will encourage this "debate" we need to remember that truth is truth, and speculation and debate is what it is. Are we focusing on being more on the tools and material or the builder? There are some things I believe we are not fully meant to understand. There is a VERY fine line between predestination and free will. Honestly I believe both are right and wrong to an extent. But should that even matter if we are fulfilling the Great Commission? What will it really solve to determine who is right and who is wrong? Jesus said to go into ALL the world and preach the Gospel and let HIM work in the hearts and minds of those who hear it. Hope that helps a little.
- Dave
www.brokensoulforchrist.wordpress.com

kev8d

I think it is important to consider your starting point. What does it mean to be saved? If we assume that salvation equals X (or Y, or XYZ) then this is going to influence the answer to the question.

I don't have time to read all the comments, but it's interesting to observe that in the Eastern Church Fathers (from Irenaeus through Origen (if we may include him!), Athanasius, to the Cappadocian Fathers, to John of Damascus, to the Byzantine Church (and beyond!), salvation was conceived of as a process by which we are conformed to the image of Christ. Whether you want to call this sanctification, theosis, deification, etc., the vision of salvation includes the gift of immortal resurrection life, but this life begins now if, by grace, we die with Christ (through baptism and daily striving against sin) so we may participate in his life (now and in the life to come).

All the best.

Anon

SO it looks like I'm going to hell from what you guys are saying...but I guess we won't know where we're going till we're dead...maybe I will be in heaven after all! If I am then I guess the once saved always saved statement is true :)

John on Cape Cod

Dear Anon,

The apostle John writes to the contrary in his 1st epistle:
"I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life. " 1 John 5:13

So, we can know, and goes on to write that this important because we can then approach the LORD confidently:
"And this is the confidence that we have toward him, that if we ask anything according to his will he hears us. " 1 John 5:14

The LORD wants us to be secure in Him.

Anon

John,
I do know that I could have eternal life, I also believe in God. But I don't live a Christian lifestyle...I have done in the past I just don't feel able to do it at the moment. I also know that God knows everything that has happened to me in my life and I don't believe he has given up on me and bolted me out of his books...It seems others on here would disagree as I was truely saved once.
This though is why I feel this is an unanswerable question and that at the end of the day we won't know where we will all end up until we are dead!

John on Cape Cod

Dear Anon,

Again, I believe God's Word tells us that He wants us to know our destiny --that we can have certainty and confidence. Continuing to look at what the Apostle John wrote:

Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God. So we have come to know and to believe the love that God has for us. God is love, and whoever abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him. By this is love perfected with us, so that we may have confidence for the day of judgment, because as he is so also are we in this world. There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear. For fear has to do with punishment, and whoever fears has not been perfected in love 1 John 4:15-18

You also see in these verses the power of God's love, the liberating power that alleviates the fear of eternal judgment. Children of God, do not have to fear His judgment, although by His love, He will discipline them (see Heb 12:5-11). It is also written, " God has not given us the spirit of fear, but of power and of love and of a sound mind (2 Tim 1:7)."

On the other hand, I also believe that the enemy of our souls wants to keep us captive to fear. Satan does not want us to rest in the complete and perfect work of Jesus Christ, which Heb 10:14 says "by a single offering He has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified." With such glorious promises such as this one, and many other in the Word that give us confidence before God, ought not we serve Him, motivated and empowered by such wondrous & saving love? If you have received Jesus Christ as Savior, and you believe He is Lord, then He alone is faithful and capable to finish the work He stated in you. What reason to rejoice, praise, and serve Him with gratitude! Let this marvelous grace overwhelm and overflow!

I am praying that you will realize the full joy and confidence in your salvation through the working of His Holy Spirit! (ref Ps 51:12)
Amen.

pedro

many of your things sound good but when i see your pictures and see you colour your hair . Why cant you be a Plain Girl in your pictures and why you look in different styles

John on Cape Cod

Examining Loss (Part 1)
Dead Faith
Question: Why do people leave the church, or in other words abandon the faith, or abandon a sound belief in the orthodox principles of the faith? We are not talking about why a family may leave our church and go to another down the road, but why do some seem to stray from the faith? It is very distressing and perplexing.

The apostle John assesses this issue in 1 John 2:19:
They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us.
John's answer is that they left, but this is simply because they never truly belonged – in other words, truly believed. We need to develop this idea, as it is critical that we know that we have a genuine faith.

In fact, the apostle Paul exhorts believers in 2 Cor 13:5
Examine yourselves, to see whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Or do you not realize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?--unless indeed you fail to meet the test! 2 Cor 13:5

The key question which has the ultimate answer is, Is Christ in you? Or in other words have you been born of the Holy Spirit? I'm getting to the conclusion before we get going, so you know where we are going, so that when we get there, you'll know where you are. Got it? Where we are going is this, the Bible clearly teaches that you must be born again, and thus have the Holy Spirit to have saving faith. Now, indeed this is the key idea. With out the Holy Spirit, we are going to see, that a dynamic, genuine, saving faith is impossible!

We are going to examine James Chapter 2 and find that there are three kinds of faith, and only one of them is saving faith.

The first is what we will call a dead faith. Reading from James 2:14-17:
What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him?
If a brother or sister is poorly clothed and lacking in daily food,
and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, be warmed and filled," without giving them the things needed for the body, what good is that?
So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

This “dead” faith is of the intellect only. There is the acceptance of God, and a “head” knowledge, or “mental accent” of Jesus' death, burial, and resurrection. However, there is a lacking of a response of good works. Now, let's get one thing straight at the top here – James is not advocating the idea that works are required for salvation and thus contradicting Paul's writing to the the Ephesians 2:8,9 where he says: For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. No, no no. What James is saying is that good works are a product or genuine, saving faith. In fact, this is in complete agreement with Paul is Ephesians 2:10 -
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them. God's saving work in us will produce good works.

Let's get back to James. James is saying here that you cannot claim to have faith in God and the redeeming work of Jesus Christ if its not demonstrated by works of love and compassion. If your life is not demonstrating the love that Jesus Christ has for you, then how can the love of Jesus Christ be in you? It is His love for you, the love He expressed on the cross, that is the supreme motivator.

Let's look at this further. The apostle John is in complete agreement. Looking at his first letter, we find that John proclaims that true faith will manifest in acts of love and compassion.

We know that we have passed out of death into life, because we love the brothers. Whoever does not love abides in death. 1 John 3:14
This verse clearly teaches that love for fellow believers is an indication “passing from death to life”, and thus of true faith. Paul uses the “passing from death to life” description of salvation when he says in Eph 2:1 “And you were dead in the trespasses and sins.” If you have passed from death to life, then you must love your brothers and sisters in Christ. So true saving faith is marked by love for believers.

John also says in 1 John 3:17 “But if anyone has the world's goods and sees his brother in need, yet closes his heart against him, how does God's love abide in him?” This is a test, and again, this echo's what James said, in that if we have the capability to meet someones need, yet do nothing, we need to question whether the love of God is alive and active in our lives, and whether we have a genuine and living faith. Now, the we know that the only way we have the love of God operational in us is because, as it says in Romans 5:5 “God's love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit who has been given to us.”

John goes to further state the importance of expressing love and compassion to others when he says in 1 John 4:20: “If anyone says, "I love God," and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen cannot love God whom he has not seen.” John makes it very clear, that there are these tests that indicate through our attitude and actions as to whether you have saving faith, and thus whether the Holy Spirit is present and active in you, bringing forth these works of love. Otherwise, you may have what theologians call simply a mental accent, which is a “dead faith.” And it is dead because it does not exhibit works of love, and works of life.

Now, I need to quickly say that some of you may having saving faith, and the Holy Spirit, however, you are currently or temporarily lacking the evidence of good works. I say this in love, that you need to examine if there are other passions, pursuits, or pleasures have captivated you. In this case, you may indeed have the Holy Spirit, but does He have all of you? If this is the case, you need to allow Him to remove the things, sins, be it attitudes, habits, whatever, that He will again be the dominating influence and bear the fruit of good works.

In the future we will continue this topic and look at the two other kinds of faith portrayed in James chapter 2, but for now, a Question: Does you life demonstrate the love of Jesus Christ to others? If not, you need to examine yourself and determine if you are truly in the faith.

Remember, the faith that can save you is the faith that will change you!

(Part's 2&3 will follow, which discuss Demonic Faith & Dynamic Faith)

nathanmitchell

I copied my answers from video response just in case everyone has read my comments on role of church history.

will finally share my thoughts on church history being that salvation is huge topic to discuss. Your video response has inspired me really in several areas: 1) talk about theology debates since our generation rarely digs deep into Christian heritage, 2) know why we believe to understanding doctrine and know how to defend the truth, 3) That good theology would shape our Christian worldview to understand Hebrew, Greek and Hermeneutics as “iron sharpens iron” biblical truth is life or death matter. Thank for taking the time to prepare your response to the scriptures that I shared being so honest.

The role of Doctrine

1. Definition of Doctrine: Taking a reality as revealed through Scripture
A) “Doctrine” comes from the Greek word “to teach or teaching” (didasko)
B) The source of Doctrine: God’s Word 2 Tim 3:16 “All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, 17that the man of God may be competent, equipped for every good work.”

2. Why is Doctrine important?
A) We need it: The Christians closest to Jesus’ “42And they devoted themselves to the apostles’ teaching and the fellowship, to the breaking of bread and the prayers.” Acts 2:42
B) Doctrine is the foundation of our ministry(-eis). Without it we have no rudder.
1 Timothy 4:6 “6If you put these things before the brothers, you will be a good servant of Christ Jesus, being trained in the words of the faith and of the good doctrine that you have followed.”

C) Doctrine preserves us from sin Psalm 119:11 “I have stored up your word in my heart, that I might not sin against you.”

3) Example: Jesus is repeatedly shown as instructing in correction

Matthew 13:54 “and coming to his hometown he taught them in their synagogue, so that they were astonished, and said, "Where did this man get this wisdom and these mighty works?”

Mark 1:22 “And they were astonished at his teaching, for he taught them as one who had authority, and not as the scribes.”

Mark 10:1 “And he left there and went to the region of Judea and beyond the Jordan, and crowds gathered to him again. And again, as was his custom, he taught them.”

Biblical Interpretation:

• Observation
The inductive study method will help you slow down to focus on God's Word, and see what it really says.

* Interpretation
Careful observation enables us to discover what the text means in its context. Since the Bible is its own best interpreter, the more accurate your observation, the greater will be your understanding of God's Word.

* Application
The Creator and Author of life has shown us how to live a satisfying, eternally significant life. Intentional, disciplined observation and interpretation lead you to the profoundly applicable Truth of the Bible.

Key movements in Church History:

Peter Waldo, one of the most effective of the pre-Lutheran Reformers, was a wealthy merchant of Lyons, France. Impressed with the way of poverty and service to Christ as the path to heaven (based on Matthew 19:21), he sold most of his holdings in 1176 and gave the proceeds to the poor. He retained some property to care for his wife and daughters, however. Within a year or so, he was joined by others, men and women, who called themselves the “Poor in spirit,” and undertook an itinerant ministry of preaching repentance and living from the handouts of listeners.

John Wycliffe (1330?–1384) was a biblical reformer, bringing to bear the teachings of Scripture on the practices of the Roman church. He also engaged in Bible translation, and it was largely through his influence that the first English version was produced. Though he personally translated or supervised translation of parts of the Bible, his version was not completed until after his death, by Nicholas of Hereford and John Purvey. Without doubt, its widespread use had an influence on the development of the English language. Wycliffe was educated at Oxford and later became master of Balliol College there. For a while chaplain to the king, with access to Parliament, he was able to reach some of the upper-class English. But he also sought to reach the common people, sending out lay evangelists to instruct them.

John Hus (1372?–1415), professor of philosophy at the University of Prague and preacher at Bethlehem Chapel, did not slavishly depend on Wycliffe, however. The old view that he was influenced by Wycliffe to the point that he simply adopted the views of the Englishman as his own must now be abandoned. A Czech reform movement, dating to about the middle of the fourteenth century, paralleled Wycliffe’s efforts. Hus was in the tradition of the native movement and a product of it. But during the early fifteenth century indigenous and imported varieties of reform joined to form a single development.
When the pope summoned Hus to the Council of Constance to stand examination on his views, the emperor Sigismund ordered him to go and promised safe conduct to and from the council. But when the council condemned him as a heretic and burned him at the stake, Sigismund did not interfere. Like Luther, Hus came to blows with the pope over the issue of indulgences (among other things); but Europe was not so ready for the Reformation in 1415 as it would be a century later.

Girolamo Savonarola (1452–1498) was a forceful preacher against the worldliness and corruption of church and society in Florence. A Dominican, he was transferred to the priory of San Marco in Florence in 1482 and gradually rose in influence and power in the city. His studies in the Old Testament prophets and the book of Revelation helped to make him a powerful preacher against the evils and corruption of society.

During 1513–1518, Luther lectured on Psalms, Romans, Galatians, Hebrews, and Titus and sometime during that period came to an acceptance of the doctrine of justification by faith. He was a Saul turned Paul. He abandoned the prevailing Scholastic and allegorical interpretation for a more strictly literal and grammatical interpretation. His students responded enthusiastically to his pedagogical method. Luther’s influence expanded as he was given charge over eleven monasteries in 1515. In the same year the town council of Wittenberg called him to the pulpit of the City Church, where he continued to minister the rest of his life. From that vantage point, he could carry his views directly to the laity.
The issue that brought Luther to the attention of all Europe was indulgences. Initially, an indulgence provided for the remission of punishment imposed by the Roman Catholic church on someone who was guilty of a specific sin. An indulgence was based on the principle that sinners were unable to do sufficient penance to expiate all their sins. Hence it was necessary for them to draw on the “treasury of merits,” to which Christ, the Virgin Mary, and the saints contributed and which could be dispensed by the pope. In earlier days one might gain an indulgence for risking his life in fighting the infidel during the Crusades. Gradually however, financial sacrifice was accepted in lieu of physical risk. And the financing of the building of churches, monasteries, hospitals, and the like could be designated by the pope as warranting indulgences. During the later Middle Ages, indulgences came to involve not only remission of punishment imposed by the Roman church, but also absolution of all guilt incurred before God.

Great Distinctives of the Lutheran Reformation
Justification by faith alone
Salvation by grace alone
The Bible alone as the authority for doctrine and practice
The priesthood of the believer
Promotion of congregational singing

HULDREICH Zwingli (1484–1531) sparked the Reformation in German-speaking Switzerland. After study at the universities of Bern, Vienna, and Basel, he was ordained and became parish priest at Glarus, where he remained for ten years. At Glarus he studied extensively the classics in the original languages, thus laying the foundation for his future Reformation work. During those years he also served as chaplain to Swiss mercenaries in Italy and began a campaign against Swiss mercenary service. This effort brought him many enemies in some of the poorer areas of the country, where that means of employment was thought to be necessary. Such animosity would be important in the later factionalizing of the country. He also fell under the influence of Erasmus during the Glarus period.
In 1516 he moved to the monastery church of Einsiedeln for a three-year ministry. There he studied the Greek New Testament published by Erasmus. He later claimed that at Einsiedeln in 1516 he had begun to found his preaching on the gospel. Because the monastery church had a well-known image of the Virgin Mary, it had become a pilgrimage center. To such comers Zwingli began to preach against the belief that religious pilgrimages were a means of obtaining pardon.
After becoming priest in the cathedral of Zurich (1519) Zwingli gradually became more open about his views. He broke with the pope and married, and preached openly against celibacy. Popular feeling was roused to such a point that the city council felt that it was necessary to appoint a public meeting for the discussion of religious subjects. When it convened, Zwingli presented his Sixty-seven Articles and was so convincing that the council declared that thereafter all religious teaching was to be based on the Bible alone and that the state would support this principle. Zwingli directed the Reformation in Switzerland along civic lines, with a view to establishing a model Christian community. He persuaded the city council to legislate the various details of the Reformation and supervise the carrying out of its decisions. In other words, he aimed at political as well as spiritual regeneration. Zwingli’s theology put great emphasis on the sovereignty of God and His election unto salvation. He held that the Lord’s Supper contributed nothing to the elect; it was merely a symbol or remembrance of the sacrifice of Christ. He could not agree with Luther, who held that the body and blood of Christ were really present in the Communion.

METHODISM
The Moravians had a direct influence on the establishment of the Methodist movement, which was founded by John and Charles Wesley and George Whitefield. Moravian missionaries exposed the Wesleys to the gospel message while the latter were on a fruitless missionary journey to the New World and had not yet been converted. Later, another Moravian, Peter Boehler, brought the Wesleys to Christ. Shortly thereafter, John Wesley visited Zinzendorf in Germany and then embarked on his lifework. Methodist was the name applied to the “holy club” at Oxford to which the Wesleys and George Whitefield had belonged; they had founded the organization because of their concern over the spiritual condition among the students. Because of the strict rules and precise spiritual methods of the group, they were nicknamed “Methodists”; subsequently the name passed on to the movement begun by the three.
John Wesley (1703–1791) and George Whitefield (1714–1770) were the great preachers; Charles Wesley (1708–1788) though also a preacher, was the hymn writer. Having composed some 7,270 hymns, he is ranked by many as the greatest hymn writer of all ages.
As the Wesleys carried on their revival efforts, they received little encouragement from the Anglican church, of which they were members. Shut out of many Anglican churches, they took a cue from Whitefield, who had had great success in outdoor preaching in America. Tremendous crowds constantly gathered for their meetings.
Early Methodism was characterized by the preaching of present assurance of salvation, development of the inner spiritual life, belief in the attainability of Christian perfection in this life, and a dignified ritual. The Wesleys were Arminian in their theology, but Whitefield was Calvinistic. Originally, John Wesley did not wish to organize the Methodist church as a separate denomination; he set up societies within the Anglican church. But the success of the American Revolution demanded a separation there, and the Methodist Episcopal church was established in 1784. In England, Methodism separated from the Anglican church about the same time.
As well as having a wide spiritual impact, Methodism proved to be a very real answer to the social ills of the day. Spiritually, Methodism was the answer to deism in England, especially among the lower and middle classes. And it met the needs of the new laboring classes in the cities, for whom the Anglican church did not assume much responsibility. Socially, in large measure it retarded forces that in France led to revolution: it provided medical dispensaries, orphanages, and relief for the poor; it stood at the front of the movement for prison reform, the abolition of slavery, and the regulation of industry.

Wayne Flonders

Hi Vicky, you can read all of this, some of it, or none of it!

Nice to see you tackle this subject. I think you did a very good job. The only thing I want to do is caution you on your statement "I do not believe in predestination".

Predestination is a biblical fact:

Rom 8:29
29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. (NKJ)

Rom 8:30
30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified. (NKJ)

Eph 1:5
5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, (NKJ)

Eph 1:11
11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, (NKJ)

To say you don't believe in predestination makes you a cousin of a person who doesn't believe Jesus is the only way to God or who doesn't believe Jesus performed miracles. If you truly believe the Bible you can't say those things. The Bible plainly teaches Jesus is the only way to God, that Jesus performed miracles, and that God predestines. When you say "I don't believe" in one of these things, you are putting your intellect and reasoning ahead of the Bible. That is very dangerous. In your case it is not a salvation issue, but you're treading on the same ground.

You may not like the doctrine of predestination, but it is solidly in the Bible. If you truly believe the Bible, you have to believe in it. Otherwise, I would have to question the depth of your belief in the Bible. I would also have to ask, what else in the Bible don't you believe?

Steve

I have read some of the debate and yes, even that great predestinarian teacher, Blessed Augustine of Hippo said that someone who has become a Christian can have his or her name blotted out of the Book of God (that is, the Book of Life).

I see some ground on which I may comfort not some few only, but the multitude of Christians: and I know that ye are longing to hear it. Christ hath said,” Forgive, that ye may be forgiven.” And what do ye say in the Prayer which we have now been discussing? “Forgive us our debts, as we also forgive our debtors.” So, Lord, forgive, as we forgive. This thou sayest, “O Father, which art in heaven, so forgive our debts, as we also forgive our debtors.” For this ye ought to do, and if ye do it not, ye will perish. When your enemy asks pardon, at once forgive him. And is this much for you to do? Though it were much for thee to love thine enemy when violent against thee, is it much to love a man who is a supplicant before thee? What hast thou to say? He was before violent, and then thou hatedst him. I had rather thou hadst not hated him even then: I had rather then when thou weft suffering from his violence, thou hadst remembered the Lord, saying, “Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do.” I would have then much wished that even at that time when thine enemy was violent against thee, thou hadst had regard to the Lord thy God speaking thus. But perhaps you will say, He did it, but then He did it as being the Lord, as the Christ, as the Son of God, as the Only-Begotten, as the Word made flesh. But what can I, an infirm and sinful man, do? If thy Lord be too high an example for thee, turn thy thoughts upon thy fellow-servant. The holy Stephen was being stoned, and as they stoned him, on bended knees did he pray for his enemies, and say, “Lord, lay not this sin to their charge.” They were casting stones, not asking pardon, yet did he pray for them. I would thou wert like him; reach forth. Why art thou for ever trailing thy heart along the earth? Hear, “Lift up thy heart,” reach forward, love thine enemies. If thou canst not love him in his violence, love him at least when he asks pardon. Love the man who saith to thee, “Brother, I have sinned, forgive me.” If thou then forgive him not, I say not merely, that thou dost blot this prayer out of thine heart, but thou shall be blotted thyself out of the book of God. (Sermons on Selected Sermons of the New Testament, Sermon VI, by Blessed Augustine of Hippo, 354-430 A.D., vol. 6, p. 279, Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers, First Series, edited by Philip Schaff, D.D., LL.D., volumes 1-14, Hendrickson Publishers, Inc., Peabody, Massachusetts)

As for the predestination controversy, Blessed Augustine is practically the only one of the Church Fathers I have read in a 38 volume set of them that I have that taught predestination. All of the others, even the earliest ones, like St. Justin and St. Irenaeus, taught free will. Blessed Augustine taught free will in his early writings and predestination later. Before he became a Christian, he was involved in the Manichaean heresy. The Manichaeans taught predestination. When he was refuting the false doctrines of Pelagius, he went back to his Manichaean background and argued against Pelagianism by saying that God predestines people to salvation. There were other Fathers who refuted Pelagianism, too, like St. Jerome, but they did not teach that we are predestined.
What has been always taught everywhere the apostles founded a church and by everyone who is a respected teacher of the Church (or at least most of the respected teachers of the Church) is the true doctrine. By respected teacher, I am referring to the Church Fathers. Universality, antiquity, and consent: that is the threefold test for Holy Tradition given by St. Vincent of Lerins. Sola Scriptura obviously does not work when it comes to determining what is the truth and what is not. Just look at all of those Sola Scriptura theologians on this blog who keep making conflicting comments as to what exactly the Bible means. There is a saying that one of our bishops said once in one of his books. Protestantism and Roman Catholicism are two different sides of the same coin. The Roman Catholics have a pope. For the Protestants, every man is his own pope. We Orthodox do not have a pope. (Although the Patriarch of Alexandria is called pope, that is just an honorary title.) The whole Church decides what is right and what is wrong. We believe that the Holy Spirit guides the whole Church into truth (St. John 16:13) and has always guided the Church since its beginning on that very first Pentecost. (Acts chapter 2) The Church is "the pillar and ground of the truth." (I Tim. 3:15)
The Orthodox Church has been in existence for nearly 2000 years and we have never taught any dogma of predestination or the "Once Saved, Always Saved" doctrine. There has never been a council of our Church that dogmatized these doctrines. We believe that both of these doctrines are heretical.

Steve

nathanmitchell

Vicky,

food for thought considering Galatians, 5:4 and 2 peter 2:22.

Galaians5:4

Wesley commentary

Therefore Christ is become of no effect to you - Who seek to be justified by the law. Ye are fallen from grace - Ye renounce the new covenant. Ye disclaim the benefit of this gracious dispensation.

Calvin commentary

5:4 Christ is b become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are c justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

(b) That is, as he himself expounds it afterward, "ye are fallen from grace."
(c) That is, seek to be justified by the Law, for indeed no man is justified by the Law.

John Macarthur

5:4 justified. See notes on 2:16; Rom. 3:24. estranged from Christ … fallen from grace. The Gr. word for “estranged” means “to be separated,” or “to be severed.” The word for “fallen” means “to lose one’s grasp on something.” Paul’s clear meaning is that any attempt to be justified by the law is to reject salvation by grace alone through faith alone. Those once exposed to the gracious truth of the gospel, who then turn their backs on Christ (Heb. 6:4–6) and seek to be justified by the law are separated from Christ and lose all prospects of God’s gracious salvation. Their desertion of Christ and the gospel only proves that their faith was never genuine (cf. Luke 8:13, 14; 1 John 2:19).

2 Peter 2:22 Amplified Bible Translation

There has befallen them the thing spoken of in the true proverb, The dog turns back to his own vomit, and, The sow is washed only to wallow again in the mire.

John Macarthur has this to say about 2 Peter 2:22 2:22 dog … sow. Two graphic analogies of an apostate. The first from Proverbs 26:11; the second is Peter’s own.

In Christ,

Nathan

Rebecca

Hey Vicky,
I think God is a loving God that saves us forever.
Love,
Rebecca

nathanmitchell

Vicky,

Will be sharing my thoughts soon on church history such a huge topic please pray that God would help me to be see it as breath of fresh air read and meditate upon the sciptures.

After looking further into author was saying in Hebrews 10:26 John Macarthur says This warning passage deals with the sin of apostasy, an intentional falling away, or defection. Apostates are those who move toward Christ, hear and understand His gospel, and are on the verge of saving belief, but then rebel and turn away. This warning against apostasy is one of the most serious warnings in all of Scripture. Not all of the Hebrews would respond to the gentle invitation of vv. 19–25. Some were already beyond response.

10:26 we. The author is speaking rhetorically. In v. 39, he excludes himself and genuine believers from this category. sin willfully. The Gr. term carries the idea of deliberate intention that is habitual. The sin is rejecting Christ deliberately. These are not isolated acts. According to the Mosaic legislation, such acts of deliberate, premeditated sin required exclusion from the congregation of Israel (cf. Num. 15:30,31) and from its worship (cf. Ex. 21:14). Such sins also excluded the individual from sanctuary in the cities of refuge (cf. Deut. 19:11–13). knowledge. The Gr. term denotes specific knowledge, not general spiritual knowledge (cf. 6:4; cf. 1 Tim. 2:4). Though the knowledge was not defective or incomplete, the application of the knowledge was certainly flawed. Judas Iscariot is a good example of a disciple who had no lack of knowledge, but lacked faith and became the arch-apostate. no longer. See note on 6:6. The apostate is beyond salvation because he has rejected the only sacrifice that can cleanse him from sin and bring him into God’s presence. To turn away from that sacrifice leaves him with no saving alternative. This is parallel to Matt. 12:31 (see note there).

Your brother in Christ,

Nathan

Gerald Hinson

The Bible has a lot to say about the security of the believer, but the point of those passages seem more about encouraging those who are faithful not to fear Satan's ability to cause them to fail in their pursuit of God.

These passages do not say that one who has willfully chosen to turn their back on God, rejecting the salvation they once held dear, should not live in fear of judgment and loss of their salvation. In fact, there are numerous passages (some of which Vicky pointed out above) that indicate the opposite.

Stated differently, I see no text in the Bible that says or implies either 1) it is impossible to change your mind about following God or 2) those who once followed God can then do anything whatsoever with no fear of Hell. These doctrines are not only non-Biblical, but unhealthy and have (IMO) severely weakened the Church overall.

Bonhoeffer, a brilliant theologian, had a lot to say on this topic in his words on "cheap grace."

Dan Thiessen

Vicky,
Your heart is good and toward God. As you implied above, if we are consciously daily abiding in the Vine this is all a moot point. However, there is an "eternal insecurity" line of thought that betrays the character and nature of God and the "once only" sacrifice of His son on the cross.
A few questions:
1. Where is that line where we lose this free gift?
2. How many times can we gain, lose, gain, lose?
3. If the Apostle Paul were to have fallen to his fears as he was shipwrecked wondering "where is God in all of this?" and committed suicide or "lost his faith" would his name have been "blotted" and condemned to hell?
4. With what does God write our names in the Lamb's Book of Life?
5. At what point did the Prodigal Son cease being a son? His dad cease being a father?

There are more but I will leave it at that. Again I say that I hear your heart and it is toward God and all that is good. May this question never be an issue in your life and you continue to provoke others to good works and challenge them to live for Jesus!

from the Father's heart,
Dan

Cheekychops

Hmmmm - I am usually an anonymous reader of this blog, but I think I will chip in for a change.

There as part of me that is deeply uncomfortable with some of these discussions - not because I object to theological debate or searching the scriptures, but because I think there are assumptions made about people who "walk away" - which presumably means, are no longer Christians, no longer attend churches or no longer engage with Christian faith and spirituality.

I think there is often an assumption that people wander away into sin. Indeed, my own experience of wandering has not been into sin. I live according to my conscience, which some would view as God's voice within me. Outside of church, I find it easier to love myself and others, practice compassion and generosity and find forgiveness towards myself and others. Indeed, one might almost say, I live more in line with the teachings of Christ outside of church than within it!

I do not always know what I believe - it is seldom in line with evangelical Christian theology. Those who have left churches, may not be willfully rejecting God or sinning- perhaps they are being honest with their intellect, their doubts and questions, perhaps they cannot abide by a lack of grace and acceptance towards themselves or people that they care for.

I hope that in these discussions, no-one will loose sight of the humanity of those who walk or even run away.

In peace.

Brian

Cheekychops, obviously I don’t know or your situation, but I think a couple of important things from scripture need to be made clear.

1 John 2:3-6 says, “3 And by this we know that we have come to know him, if we keep his commandments. 4 Whoever says “I know him” but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him, 5 but whoever keeps his word, in him truly the love of God is perfected. By this we may know that we are in him: 6 whoever says he abides in him ought to walk in the same way in which he walked.”

Now obviously that means caring about the broken and hurting, but it also means more than this. Hear the words of Jesus. Matthew 22: 34-40.

“34 But when the Pharisees heard that he had silenced the Sadducees, they gathered together. 35 And one of them, a lawyer, asked him a question to test him. 36 “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?” 37 And he said to him, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. 38 This is the great and first commandment. 39 And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. 40 On these two commandments depend all the Law and the Prophets.”

The great and first commandment is to love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. That means a life that is lived with a focus on God. How can we say we love God completely, but then we do not give him any of our time, energy, or thoughts? If we saw a husband who said he loved his wife completely, but then he never spent time with her, never tried to get to know her more, never did anything that she asked of him, never did anything she liked, and never spent time around other people who cared about her, we would say he did not really love her. Right?

How then can we do the same thing to God? We can say we love him completely, but what then if our actions do not show that? What if we never pray to him, never think of him, never read his Word, never do the things he commands, never do the things that please him, never spend time with other believers in worship, how then can we say we truly love God?

In saying all that I would urge you to live a Christ like life. This does not mean there will never be harder times or times of discouragement, but it does mean that we should walk in the way in which Christ walked.

Also, you said, “I hope that in these discussions, no-one will loose sight of the humanity of those who walk or even run away.”

True. Everyone is made in the image of God, even unbelievers. That gives them a worth that we should all constantly remember. However, we should also remember that those who do not believe are in open rebellion against God. They need to repent of there sinfulness and put their trust in Jesus because he is mighty to save. We should encourage them in this all the more because they are made in God’s image.

Grace and peace
Brian

Cheekychops

I find the idea that disbelief is rebellion interesting. Do we choose what we believe?

Brian

Scripture speaks very plainly that unbelief is rebellion. Heb 3:12-19

“12 Take care, brothers, lest there be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, leading you to fall away from the living God. 13 But exhort one another every day, as long as it is called “today,” that none of you may be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original confidence firm to the end. 15 As it is said,

“Today, if you hear his voice,
do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion.”

16 For who were those who heard and yet rebelled? Was it not all those who left Egypt led by Moses? 17 And with whom was he provoked for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies fell in the wilderness? 18 And to whom did he swear that they would not enter his rest, but to those who were disobedient? 19 So we see that they were unable to enter because of unbelief.

Any time God commands us and we willfully reject that command, we are in open rebellion.

God has commanded us in his Word. Mark 1:14-15

14 Now after John was arrested, Jesus came into Galilee, proclaiming the gospel of God, 15 and saying, “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel.”

Jesus calls us to repent and believe in him; therefore, unbelief is rebellion against him and what he has commanded.

Grace and peace
Brian

Cheekychops

I don't think that makes a lot of sense. I can no more make myself believe in Christianity than I can convince myself that the world was created by a flying spaghetti monster.

Brian

And yet a flying spaghetti monster offers no hope of salvation. That hope of salvation is found in Jesus Christ alone.

Who, while we were still sinners, came to this earth and lived a sinless life of perfect obedience to God. Who then died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures, was then buried, and was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures, and appeared to many witnesses.

Christ did this he so that we might have forgiveness of sins and that we might be presented before God the Father clothed in his pure righteousness.

Jesus’ words echo out to all generations, all nations, and all people. He said repent and believe in the gospel. Without him we will suffer the holy and perfect wrath of God because of our sins. With him we are adopted by God and called his beloved sons.

What has a flying spaghetti monster ever done?

Grace and peace
Brian

Cheekychops

Brian,

I didn't come for a debate - I've had too many! All I wanted to do was to remind people of the humanity of those that walk away.

I don't believe what you've said - but there are about a hundred thousand debates to have there - the existence of a supreme being, the authority of the Bible, epistemology, the nature of truth...

I don't believe. I don't choose not to believe, but my most honest position both in terms of my own experience and a more academic process of seeking and evaluating evidence from as open-minded a position as possible leads me to a different conclusion than you
have come to.

For me, to "repent and believe" would be dishonest. I'm not saying, anyone else lacks integrity - if you own search is honest and open, and you come to that conclusion, then that's great.

As to my good friend, the flying spaghetti monster, I suggest you google him. May you be touched by his noodley appendages.

Peace,

C

Brian

I wasn’t trying to start a debate. I was sharing the gospel. And I think that you need to hear it.

Repent and believe in Jesus as the only way to salvation.

You say you have had too many debates, but I have the suspicion that you live and thrive in the debate. I could be wrong, but I don’t think so. You are willing to argue about the existence of a supreme being, the authority of the bible, epistemology, the nature of truth, and even flying spaghetti monsters. You are willing to discuss these things because it allows you to avoid the simple claims of the gospel.

All of us will stand before God. Those who believe will stand in the complete forgiveness and perfect righteousness of Christ. Those who do not believe in the only son of God will stand before God to be judged, and I can guarantee you that the excuse of “I didn’t choose not to believe” will not be sufficient to save from the wrath of God.

May you repent and believe.
I pray for you.

Grace and peace
Brian

Gerald Hinson

Personally, I'm just glad to see you are drinking coffee again... I find it helps me think deeper, more spiritual thoughts... :)

nathanmitchell

Vicky,

I know that Hebrews 10:26 can be confusing to interpret the text The Amplified bible translation does a good job clarify the meaning of scripture.

Hebrews 10:26
For if we go on deliberately and willingly sinning after once acquiring the knowledge of the Truth, there is no longer any sacrifice left to atone for [our] sins [no further offering to which to look forward].

John Wesley commentary says regarding Hebrews 10:26 For when we - Any of us Christians. Sin wilfully - By total apostasy from God, termed "drawing back," ver. 38. After having received the experimental knowledge of the gospel truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins - None but that which we obstinately reject.

Nathan

Brian

I have a question, and it relates to the subject of condemnation, the cross, and limited atonement.

What is it that sends a person to hell?

Isn’t it unforgiven sin?

Eph 2:1 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins 2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— 3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body [1] and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.

So we were at one time “children of wrath” because of “the trespasses and sins in which we once walked.”

Here is my question. If we say that Christ shed his blood on the cross for everyone, then how can we believe that anybody is going to hell?

Here is where I am going with this. Christ died nearly 2000 years ago. Therefore, not one person who is having this conversation was even alive at the time the blood of Christ was shed. Because of that fact, whatever the blood of Christ accomplished happened before we were born. Christ’s work was independent of any action we had done because we had done nothing.

There is then the question, what does scripture say Christ’s shed blood accomplished?

Col 2:13-14 say this, “13 And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses, 14 by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross.”

This passage says that God has “forgiven us all our trespasses” by nailing our record of debt to the cross. This would seem to clearly say that our every sin was forgiven at the cross. Again, this occurred 2000 years ago.

The question then becomes, if we believe Christ died for the sins of every single person, how is anyone not saved? If we believe Christ died for everyone, then wouldn’t we also have to believe that his blood forgave all of their sins? How then can we say that some are going to hell?

What then would a person who believes Christ shed his blood for every single person say about why a person who has been forgiven of all their sins can still go to hell?

This also relates to perseverance. If one can completely reject faith after they have been a true member of Christ’s kingdom, then what are they really rejecting? Christ already died for their sins. What is left to condemn them? Is God condemning them for something other than sin?!

Romans 8:1-3 “8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death. 3 For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh,”

This passage says there is no condemnation because of the work Christ did at the cross 2000 years ago. If Christ died for everyone, then there is no condemnation for anyone. How then can we say, if we believe Christ died for every single person, that those who were once saved but now reject the faith are condemned?

Grace and peace
Brian

Alastair Vance

"This is how much God loved the world: He gave his Son, his one and only Son. And this is why: so that no one need be destroyed; by believing in him, anyone can have a whole and lasting life. God didn't go to all the trouble of sending his Son merely to point an accusing finger, telling the world how bad it was. He came to help, to put the world right again. Anyone who trusts in him is acquitted; anyone who refuses to trust him has long since been under the death sentence without knowing it. And why? Because of that person's failure to believe in the one-of-a-kind Son of God when introduced to him.
(John 3:16 - The Message)

Brian

So you are saying that, instead of the blood of Jesus forgiving our sin, it is our belief in Jesus that forgives our sin?

Grace and peace
Brian

Alastair Vance

Brilliant Vicky. I actually blogged about this topic back in December and used a lot of the same points you have. The church is increasingly focusing more on God's love and forgetting that he is a JUST God also.

http://snowjunkie.wordpress.com/2008/12/20/once...

nathanmitchell

Vicky,

The “Great Apostasy”

Yes those who hold fast firm to end will be saved following passages from the Bible and those who do not believe that some them turn way from the living God will perish. I wanted focus on keys scriptures that give the big picture of “Great Apostasy” The supported passage that you were good bible passages. After I have worked through details of church history will share my thoughts on it.

Matthew 25:14-30

The Parable of the Talents
14"For it will be like a man going on a journey, who called his servants and entrusted to them his property. 15To one he gave five talents, to another two, to another one, to each according to his ability. Then he went away. 16He who had received the five talents went at once and traded with them, and he made five talents more. 17So also he who had the two talents made two talents more. 18But he who had received the one talent went and dug in the ground and hid his master’s money. 19Now after a long time the master of those servants came and settled accounts with them. 20And he who had received the five talents came forward, bringing five talents more, saying, 'Master, you delivered to me five talents; here I have made five talents more.' 21His master said to him, 'Well done, good and faithful servant. You have been faithful over a little; I will set you over much. Enter into the joy of your master.' 22And he also who had the two talents came forward, saying, 'Master, you delivered to me two talents; here I have made two talents more.' 23His master said to him, 'Well done, good and faithful servant. You have been faithful over a little; I will set you over much. Enter into the joy of your master.' 24He also who had received the one talent came forward, saying, 'Master, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you did not sow, and gathering where you scattered no seed, 25so I was afraid, and I went and hid your talent in the ground. Here you have what is yours.' 26But his master answered him, 'You wicked and slothful servant! You knew that I reap where I have not sown and gather where I scattered no seed? 27Then you ought to have invested my money with the bankers, and at my coming I should have received what was my own with interest. 28So take the talent from him and give it to him who has the ten talents. 29 For to everyone who has will more be given, and he will have an abundance. But from the one who has not, even what he has will be taken away. 30And cast the worthless servant into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.'

Revelation Chapters 1-3

Revelation 1
Prologue
1The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show to his servants the things that must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John, 2 who bore witness to the word of God and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, even to all that he saw. 3Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear, and who keep what is written in it, for the time is near.
Greeting to the Seven Churches
4John to the seven churches that are in Asia:

Grace to you and peace from him who is and who was and who is to come, and from the seven spirits who are before his throne, 5and from Jesus Christ the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of kings on earth.

To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood 6and made us a kingdom, priests to his God and Father, to him be glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen. 7Behold, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him, and all tribes of the earth will wail on account of him. Even so. Amen.
8"I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty."
Vision of the Son of Man
9I, John, your brother and partner in the tribulation and the kingdom and the patient endurance that are in Jesus, was on the island called Patmos on account of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus. 10I was in the Spirit on the Lord’s day, and I heard behind me a loud voice like a trumpet 11saying, "Write what you see in a book and send it to the seven churches, to Ephesus and to Smyrna and to Pergamum and to Thyatira and to Sardis and to Philadelphia and to Laodicea."
12Then I turned to see the voice that was speaking to me, and on turning I saw seven golden lampstands, 13and in the midst of the lampstands one like a son of man, clothed with a long robe and with a golden sash around his chest. 14The hairs of his head were white, like white wool, like snow. His eyes were like a flame of fire, 15his feet were like burnished bronze, refined in a furnace, and his voice was like the roar of many waters. 16 In his right hand he held seven stars, from his mouth came a sharp two-edged sword, and his face was like the sun shining in full strength.
17 When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. But he laid his right hand on me, saying, "Fear not, I am the first and the last, 18and the living one. I died, and behold I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of Death and Hades. 19 Write therefore the things that you have seen, those that are and those that are to take place after this. 20As for the mystery of the seven stars that you saw in my right hand, and the seven golden lampstands, the seven stars are the angels of the seven churches, and the seven lampstands are the seven churches.
Revelation 2
To the Church in Ephesus
1"To the angel of the church in Ephesus write: 'The words of him who holds the seven stars in his right hand, who walks among the seven golden lampstands.
2"'I know your works, your toil and your patient endurance, and how you cannot bear with those who are evil, but have tested those who call themselves apostles and are not, and found them to be false. 3I know you are enduring patiently and bearing up for my name’s sake, and you have not grown weary. 4But I have this against you, that you have abandoned the love you had at first. 5Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent, and do the works you did at first. If not, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place, unless you repent. 6Yet this you have: you hate the works of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate. 7He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To the one who conquers I will grant to eat of the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God.'
To the Church in Smyrna
8"And to the angel of the church in Smyrna write: 'The words of the first and the last, who died and came to life.
9"'I know your tribulation and your poverty (but you are rich) and the slander of those who say that they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan. 10Do not fear what you are about to suffer. Behold, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and for ten days you will have tribulation. Be faithful unto death, and I will give you the crown of life. 11 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. The one who conquers will not be hurt by the second death.'
To the Church in Pergamum
12"And to the angel of the church in Pergamum write: 'The words of him who has the sharp two-edged sword.
13"'I know where you dwell, where Satan’s throne is. Yet you hold fast my name, and you did not deny my faith even in the days of Antipas my faithful witness, who was killed among you, where Satan dwells. 14But I have a few things against you: you have some there who hold the teaching of Balaam, who taught Balak to put a stumbling block before the sons of Israel, so that they might eat food sacrificed to idols and practice sexual immorality. 15So also you have some who hold the teaching of the Nicolaitans. 16Therefore repent. If not, I will come to you soon and war against them with the sword of my mouth. 17 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To the one who conquers I will give some of the hidden manna, and I will give him a white stone, with a new name written on the stone that no one knows except the one who receives it.'
To the Church in Thyatira
18"And to the angel of the church in Thyatira write: 'The words of the Son of God, who has eyes like a flame of fire, and whose feet are like burnished bronze.
19"'I know your works, your love and faith and service and patient endurance, and that your latter works exceed the first. 20But I have this against you, that you tolerate that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess and is teaching and seducing my servants to practice sexual immorality and to eat food sacrificed to idols. 21I gave her time to repent, but she refuses to repent of her sexual immorality. 22Behold, I will throw her onto a sickbed, and those who commit adultery with her I will throw into great tribulation, unless they repent of her works, 23and I will strike her children dead. And all the churches will know that I am he who searches mind and heart, and I will give to each of you according to your works. 24But to the rest of you in Thyatira, who do not hold this teaching, who have not learned what some call the deep things of Satan, to you I say, I do not lay on you any other burden. 25Only hold fast what you have until I come. 26 The one who conquers and who keeps my works until the end, to him I will give authority over the nations, 27and he will rule them with a rod of iron, as when earthen pots are broken in pieces, even as I myself have received authority from my Father. 28And I will give him the morning star. 29 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.'
Revelation 3
To the Church in Sardis
1"And to the angel of the church in Sardis write: 'The words of him(A) who has the seven spirits of God and the seven stars.

"'I know your works. You have the reputation(B) of being alive,(C) but you are dead. 2Wake up, and strengthen what remains and is about to die, for I have not found your works(D) complete in the sight of my God. 3(E) Remember, then, what you received and heard. Keep it, and repent. If you will not wake up,(F) I will come(G) like a thief, and you will not know at what hour I will come against you. 4Yet you have still a few names in Sardis, people who have not(H) soiled their garments, and they will walk with me(I) in white, for they are(J) worthy. 5(K) The one who conquers will be clothed thus in white garments, and I will never(L) blot his name out of(M) the book of life.(N) I will confess his name before my Father and before his angels. 6(O) He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.'
To the Church in Philadelphia
7"And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write: 'The words of(P) the holy one,(Q) the true one,(R) who has the key of David,(S) who opens and no one will shut, who shuts and no one opens.
8"'I know your works. Behold, I have set before you(T) an open door, which no one is able to shut. I know that you have but little power, and yet you have kept my word and have not denied my name. 9Behold, I will make those of(U) the synagogue of Satan who say that they are Jews and are not, but lie—behold,(V) I will make them come and bow down before your feet and they will learn that(W) I have loved you. 10(X) Because you have kept my word about patient endurance, I will keep you from the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world, to try(Y) those who dwell on the earth. 11(Z) I am coming soon.(AA) Hold fast what you have, so that no one may seize(AB) your crown. 12(AC) The one who conquers, I will make him(AD) a pillar in the temple of my God. Never shall he go out of it, and I will write on him(AE) the name of my God, and(AF) the name of the city of my God,(AG) the new Jerusalem,(AH) which comes down from my God out of heaven, and my own new name. 13(AI) He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.'
To the Church in Laodicea
14"And to the angel of the church in Laodicea write: 'The words of the(AJ) Amen,(AK) the faithful and true witness,(AL) the beginning of God’s creation.
15"'I know your works: you are neither cold nor hot.Would that you were either cold or hot! 16So, because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of my mouth. 17For you say, I am rich, I have prospered, and I need nothing, not realizing that you are wretched, pitiable, poor, blind, and naked. 18I counsel you to buy from me gold refined by fire, so that you may be rich, and white garments so that you may clothe yourself and the shame of your nakedness may not be seen, and salve to anoint your eyes, so that you may see. 19Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline, so be zealous and repent. 20Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and eat with him, and he with me. 21 The one who conquers, I will grant him to sit with me on my throne, as I also conquered and sat down with my Father on his throne. 22 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.'"

Steve

Well, I agree with you that one can lose his salvation and fall out of a covenant relationship with God. You are looking at all of this from a Western theological perspective. The Orthodox Church has no doctrine of a substitutionary atonement. This doctrine was invented by Anselm of Canterbury in the 11th century. We believe that justice, wrath, mercy, and love belong to all Three Persons of the Trinity. If Christ died on the Cross to appease the Father's wrath and the Holy Spirit's wrath, then who died in our place to appease Christ's wrath toward us? Jesus is God, too. No one did. It is best to not try to explain God's mercy and justice and just to simply say that God is merciful and He is just and how He can be both is a mystery. After all, God is far bigger than we are.
We see the problem with our salvation lies with us and not with God. The problem is not that something must be done to get God to love us. He already loves us. In the Book of Wisdom, it says, "For Thou lovest all the things that are, and abhorrest nothing which Thou hast made: for never wouldest Thou have made any thin, if Thou hadst hated it." (I do not want to get into any discussion about the canonicity of this book here. I will say this that the Church Fathers quoted from it as authoritative and as "divinely inspired Scripture" and there are even prophecies of Christ in it.) God did not create anything or anyone to be hated. God loves everyone. The problem, then, with our salvation is with us. We must love God. God already loves us. Spiritual death, according to St. John Chrysostom, is separation from God "in purpose and in soul."
One of the key words that is used in Orthodoxy to explain salvation is "participation." We must participate in the uncreated energies of God which what we call grace. (Grace, in our view, is not something separate from God. It is God Himself. It is His uncreated energies. It is His love, His power, His mercy, His wisdom, etc.) As for His wrath, Lactantius said that there is kindness and mercy in God's wrath. The purpose of His wrath is to deter us from sin. He desires everyone's salvation, He takes no pleasure in seeing anyone go to Hell.
Justification is not a juridical process. It is not like going to a judge and being acquitted. That is a very common understanding of justification found among the Protestant churches. We view justification in terms of being in a covenant relationship with God. So, whenever we say we are justified by faith and works and not by faith alone, we are not saying that we must have faith and do good works in order to be acquitted by God the Judge in a juridical sense. We are saying that we must have faith and works in order to remain in a covenant relationship with God. The Greek word for faith also means faithfulness. To believe in Christ is also to be faithful to Christ. Being faithful Christ means we must obey Him.
We do not believe that anyone is saved by works nor is anyone saved by faith. We are saved by the mercy of God. There has never been a faith-works controversy in the Orthodox East. The Orthodox Church has always taught that both faith and works are important and that righteous men and women are saved by the mercy of God.
Another thing about our views on salvation is that we believe that the Sacraments are very important for our salvation. Actually, there was a heretic named Pelagius who taught that the Sacraments are not important and that it is possible to live a sinless life without ever receiving any of the Sacraments. This is, of course, quite false. The Sacraments are gifts given to us by God to help us participate in His divine energies so that we can grow spiritually and become more like Him. Even people who receive the Sacraments do not live a sinless life. Pelagius was teaching salvation without grace.
I can say more on these matters, but it is getting late and I will have to stop here.

Steve

Nathan Arnold

The only point on which I will take issue is your 3rd bullet point as I think the Hebrews 6 passage goes to great length (enlightened, tasted the heavenly gift, shared in the Holy Spirit, tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age) to describe one that is "saved" and yet lost their salvation.

Another thought I have had came out of a discussion on evolution. There are two types of evolution, macro evolution and micro evolution. Macro is the big one, monkey to man type of deal. Micro evolution is more adaptation, like people getting taller over time to adapt to environmental change.

If you ask: does evolution exist? The answer is yes. Micro evolution exists and is proven, but macro evolution is unproven. Now the point isn't evolution but macro and micro.

Looking at OT promise there was both micro promise (God's promise to Abraham or Moses) and macro promise (God's promise to the nation of Israel). That's why God could keep the nation of Israel out of the promise land until all of the disobedient generation was dead and yet still remain true to his word. His promise wasn't to the individuals, but to the nation.

When looking at words spoken in the NT is it possible that words spoken about the perseverance of the saints, predestination and the like are spoken not about us as individuals, but about "Christians" as a whole? Macro application as opposed to micro application.

Joe

Thanks for you thoughts Nathan. I agree that on initially reading Hebrews 6 it does appear that the description is of a 'saved' person. But looking more closely I actually think the language suggests someone who has come to know the message of Jesus in a physical, intellectual and spiritual way and is even convinced by it, but hasn't given their heart to it. I'll highlight those words in capitals below:

For it is impossible to restore to repentance again those who have once been ENLIGHTENED (not 'born again'), who have TASTED(not 'received') the heavenly gift, who have SHARED (not 'live in the power of') in the Holy Spirit, and have TASTED (not 'have been transformed') the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come.

Let me know what you think of this,
Joe

Nathan Arnold

I am open to the idea that it is not describing someone that is truly "saved" (although I still believe it is describing that) I don't agree with your synopsis of the words. You hold the writer of Hebrews to our Christianese, words they would have not been under any obligation to use for clarity sake.

The words "born again" are used only 3 times in the New Testament. Although they are widely the used to describe a salvation "experience", they are hardly Biblical standard for describing the process, or describing one that has made a commitment to Christ. Hence the word "enlightened" cannot be discarded as a potential descriptor for a follower of Christ.

As for the word shared, many translations have it as "were made partakers of the Holy Spirit". The Greek word used in that passage is "metochos" which means: sharing in or partner. Any time I think of a partnership I think of a two way street, two individuals working together for a common goal.

Although no conclusive either way, it seems a much farther stretch to say the writer was attempting to talk about people who just didn't really get it. If we take the context of the passage into it the writer seems to be exhorting the reader to push on to deeper things and not become stagnant and fall away. It seems odd that while addressing believers the subject would suddenly change to non-believers.

Also, if one had never received salvation in the first place (as you are stating this passage is for people who never REALLY were saved) then why would they lose the opportunity? If they had never accepted salvation in the first place their first acceptance (somewhere down the road) would be accepting Christ's first sacrifice, right? For this passage to read correctly their would have to be acceptance (saved, or born again) and denial.

Joe

that's helpful, I'll have a reflect on those thoughts, particularly the last paragraphy. However, as Jesus himself says 'ye must be born again', I'm not convinced I'm applying C21st western evangelical frames of reference artificially upon the New Testament.

Nathan Arnold

Oh, I'm not saying they are 21st century words. They were said by Christ without a doubt. What I'm saying is they were not "the" descriptor used by Christ or any Biblical writer. We have latched on to them but Christ used those words with one person. Hardly grounds to then apply them to all other Biblical passages as a standard for salvation description. In fact, being born again wasn't part of standard Christian jargon until 1960's America. It is currently used far, far more than it ever was when scripture was being written. Does that make sense?

Joe

Wow, I’ve only been following this blog for about a month and along comes this! So I thought I’d plunge straight into the deep end with my debut comment.

This is an issue I have spent a lot of time thinking about, and I’m glad that it is being debated publicly, openly and honestly, and thank you Vicky for starting this amazingly important dialogue. I’ve read pretty much every post in this thread and its predecessor and have been challenged by nearly all of them! Below I present an outline of my views on this issue, and hope that they meet the standard of the challenge that I set out above. I’d love to hear people’s comments on this and be corrected/rebuked/encouraged as you feel appropriate!

One thing that has been pointed out by many people in this debate is that the Bible seems to offer a variety of verses to support any number of positions one may take on it. The challenge therefore is to look at those verses regularly put forward by the protagonists of the differing positions and seek to understand them within the overall biblical narrative, and then to draw conclusions that synthesise those scriptures in a unified message. However this needs to be done without artificially imposing categories of thought upon the Bible that the Bible itself doesn’t support - a common theological trap.

The two foundational principles of the view I argue for below are the following:

1. The Bible clearly teaches predestination and of an unbreakable perseverance of those who are truly born again. Most of the key passages have already been quoted in the thread so I’ll just cite them: Romans 8:29-30, Romans 9, Ephesians 1:4-5, John 10, 1 Peter 1:1.

2. The Bible clearly speaks of falling away and of blessings being taken away according to our decisions. Again I’ll just cite as in depth quoting has already occurred (particular see Vicky’s opening post in this thread): Mark 13:13, Hebrews 3:12, 1 Timothy 4:1, Hebrews 6:1-12

I believe it is possible to reconcile these two emphasises in a biblically faithful way by asserting that although many come to taste the blessings or know the truth of God, not all accept them/it and so forsake receiving these blessings that were in their grasp. The parable of the sower teaches that there are many points at which these blessings could be rejected: immediately upon hearing the gospel (the seed on the path), after starting out following Jesus then packing it in due to unbelief (the seed on the shallowly, stony ground) or after following Jesus but then deciding that the blessings of the world are better than Jesus (the thorny ground). But Scripture doesn’t make us accept that these people are truly born again or one of Jesus’ sheep. Indeed of the comprehensive list of passages that Vicky gave I don’t think any one of them demands us to view the people falling away as ever ‘saved’. Therefore those who fall away should not be considered members of the elect. Although this is a fairly standard ‘reformed’ answer, I believe it is a biblically faithful answer, as it doesn’t deny the reality of falling away but also doesn’t contradict the promises of perseverance for Jesus’ sheep or the doctrine of predestination.

However, I don’t think we should stop there, as to give full justice to the passages that speak of falling away we must examine the nature of falling away in more depth. Passages such as Luke 15:11-32 (prodigal son) and 2 Chronicles 7:14 (“if my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land”) show that God does not instantly condemn those who reject following Him to unrepentance and hell. The prodigal son is a classic example of one who knew of the blessing, turned to another life and then returned to the blessing. But he was a different person when he returned. In leaving he shows that before he left his heart was not for the blessings of his father’s house but for the things of the world. After tasting the bitterness of those things he came back to the Father. That he could turn back showed his repentance, and should encourage us to keep on believing that those who have fallen away can turn back to God if they want to.

But what then of Hebrews 12:14-17 that speaks of Esau’s inability to repent? It is important to note that he wept with sorrow over losing the blessing not over what he had done. Esau didn’t want God and didn’t repent of his sin - he just wanted the blessing. This is in contrast to the prodigal son he was truly broken by his rebellion and came back humbly to his Father not seeking any blessing beyond the most meagre of upkeeps. It would thus be wrong to use that Hebrews 12 passage to discard all who have fallen away as unable to repent. So, putting it crudely, I think there are two types of falling away presented in the Bible: those which still offer the hope of repentance to that person and those that don’t.

So what of passages that offer no hope of salvation to those who have fallen away? The two most prominent scriptures in this category are the unforgivable sin (Mark 3:20-30) and Hebrews 6:1-12. What is different about the falling away described here and other passages that talk of falling away? There are many similarities between these two passages which I think suggests that they should be interpreted in light of each other. In each case, the ones being spoken of have an incontrovertible knowledge of Jesus’ lordship and truth (in the case of the Pharisees the miracles being performed in front of their eyes in the case of Hebrews those who had tasted the spiritual blessings of the Christian faith) and that they both held Jesus up to public shame through rejecting His truth that they know (the Pharisees by declaring it to be the work of Satan and the people in the Hebrews passage by denouncing their faith publicly).

The passages then talk about the consequence of such actions; one is an unforgivable sin and the other is the impossibility of repentance. That repentance is necessary for forgiveness seems to be a further justification for treating these two passages as talking about the same thing. So what is it about the holding up of Jesus to public shame when knowing who He really is that makes repentance an impossibility? I think it is that such people have acted so wilfully against so much evidence and personal knowledge of truth that through such extreme hardness of heart they have disabled their function of repentance. This also fits with passages that speak of no salvation for those who live in a pattern of deliberate, ongoing and unrepented of sin (Hebrews 10:26-27), as they clearly know of Christ’s righteousness for they know that what they are doing is ‘sin’ and by continuing to choose it there may come a point where they don’t want to choose anything but sin anymore and thus have no capacity for repentance.

As has been said elsewhere, this is very different from undeliberate sin and the awareness of sinfulness. Satan will constantly seek to show us our corruption in order to discourage us, and such is the depth of our corruption that we can become overwhelmed in it. But, there is always relief and hope when Satan does attack us in this way for we know that as His sheep Jesus will not lose us and that his sacrifice atoned for all our sin and that in the resurrection He has conquered the evil one and will deliver us to new, pure bodies free form all corruption, just as His resurrection body is incorruptible. I’m writing this as I’m aware that the position I’ve outlined above could be pastorally misinterpreted and used to write people off when that is the last thing we should be doing to those who show true desire to follow Jesus, whatever their past may have been.

So, to summarise my thoughts:

• The bible clearly teaches predestination and perseverance of the saints
• The bible clearly speaks of some falling away
• No bible passage that speaks of falling away compels us to believe those people were truly born again; they thus don’t contradict the perseverance passages
• There are two types of falling away: those where repentance is possible and those where it is not
• The cases where repentance is not possible are where someone’s heart is put beyond repentance through deliberate, knowing and public desecration of Jesus’ truth by someone who incontrovertibly knows it to be true, whether this be in the form of ascribing Jesus’ work as satanic, publicly denouncing their faith or deliberately sinning to they extent they don’t care about it anymore
• The cases where repentance is possible is where people have a genuine desire to follow Jesus again (as opposed to merely wanting to get their blessing back like Esau) and are deeply concerned by their sin. Therefore we should not use these doctrines to write off those who have fallen away, but plead with God that they would turn back to Him and not be hardened in their rebellion.

I’m not a theologian or a pastor (and I’m greatly appreciative to all who have taken time to present passages in their context and have shared their biblical study skills with us), but I hope this view is biblically faithful and accordingly doesn’t understate the seriousness of falling away, the strength of the perseverance promises or the stunning width of God’s grace in ‘welcoming the prodigals home’. I also hope this discussion will prompt me to pray like crazy for my dear brothers and sisters to persevere and for those who show signs of falling away to turn back once again to our amazing and gracious Father.

kyledgebhart

i saw a week ago you were opening up this can of worms. it made me smile. ;)

haven't read through all this, but have one thought on the topic:

regarding salvation in the OT, if Israel was chosen by God, but could fall away from faith by their unbelief (both individually and as a nation) than why do we as NT believers think that we are 'impervious' to the loss of our salvation?

God's ways haven't changed and I interpret Paul's thoughts in Romans 11:20-25 as a warning to believers in Jesus to be careful not to assume that God's kindness is somehow license to an arrogant belief that they cannot fall away and be judged by God.

Anon

Ok Vicky what you're saying is good stuff and has made me think about my own life and my lack of being able to 'stick it out' with God. But I still believe that if you have been truely saved and turn your back on God you still can't in your heart deny that he is real.

I have nothing writen down to back me up here, all I have is life experience and a little bit of biblical knowledge...But it is possible for people to walk away and return to God like the prodigal son...the son's dad never stopped loving him and the son knew he could return to his dad.
I've seen plenty of people who have done just as that man's child did...I've done it myself. But if God has 'bolted' me out of the book of life for doing it...why does he take me back time and again?!
Is it because I still believe he exsists? Does that mean I have not truely turned away from him and the belief of his exsistance allows him to keep a hand on me...I don't know? I have no idea how he works.

I do not believe he has hand picked a few people to go to heaven though...If He loves everyone wouldn't He want everyone threre?...surely He would?!

x

Shannon

I'm wondering if it's at all valid to use OT scripture to even speak on the issue, since the "seal" which holds us fast is the Holy Spirit, and until Acts He had not yet been given, so it seems that none of those OT passages would apply to the issue whatsoever. Even then, to believe that the doctrine Perseverence (again, I don't believe in "Once Saved, Always Saved", either) does not deny the active WILLing of the believer to continually follow God and be faithful... only that God is even sovereign, ultimately, over that.

Nathan Arnold

I sat down to work up a lead sheet for tomorrow and made the mistake of catching up on some blog reading. I feel verbally abused and the posts weren't even in response to me! Wow. I suppose this is the time where I apply what I learned growing up and say nothing else.

Josh

First of all, to the community at large, this is a huge post, so if you don't wish to read the whole thing, please don't feel obligated to do so. I'll try to be more concise in the future. The last paragraph is the only part that I would urge each of you to take time to read.

Vicky, thanks for your willingness to share your position with us. You could have easily tossed out these questions without getting involved, but you took the time to write out a lengthy response and joined the discussion, which I appreciate. Personally, I hope that we can continue these discussions and that you'll feel comfortable with sharing your views on other issues that merit discussion in the future, but as I'll expand upon later, that will largely be dependent on the cooperation of the group as a whole.

Regarding your position, I agree with your position on free will. That's one of the reasons I love Lewis's writings so much--he explains this (and many other concepts) so much better than I can. I believe that God extends the opportunity for repentance to all, and that we cannot be saved until He first extends this offer (John 6:44). That said, I also believe that we can choose to accept or to reject this offer. For instance, when Christ laid out the cost of following Him to the rich young man, the rich young man rejected Christ and went away sad (Matthew 19:16-22). The paradoxical part of this is that the only way we can choose to accept Christ is through Christ's provision, but just because He enables us to say yes does not mean he forces us to say yes. It's a subtle distinction that can be hard to understand, but that's why He's God. He's clearly bigger than we can ever fully understand during this lifetime.

The place where our views differ is regarding the notion of falling away. I believe that the Bible teaches of salvation as a process. After all, Jesus refers to the process of salvation as being "born again" when he talks to Nicodemus (John 3:3-7). We tend to look at salvation as a one-time event, as we tend to refer to the point where we first accept Christ as when we were saved. Thus, we tend to look at salvation as simply our spiritual birth, not as the process of growing up spiritually that follows. In fact, there are several times in the New Testament where the word "saved" is used in a tense that implies a continuous process, not a past event. (Examples include 1 Corinthians 1:18, Romans 8:24, 2 Timothy 1:9) That being said, I believe that once the process of salvation truly begins, it continues on for the rest of our lifetime. Perhaps the strongest argument to this point is made by Paul in 1 Corinthians 3:10-15. In verse 15, Paul mentions a person whose works are built upon the foundation of Christ (provided by the context of the prior verses), but the quality of his work was poor, so it was consumed by fire. Nonetheless, the person in the example is saved from destruction. Let me say definitively that I do not believe that just because salvation endures means that believers have permission to go on sinning as they please. In fact, I think that the types of believers that Paul speaks of are those who never allow God to use them to the fullest (may that never be said of us), and does not refer to people who turn their backs on the faith entirely. These are the people that I believe Hebrews 6 is referencing (though I admit this passage is challenging, and I do not claim to have an authoritative grip on it by any means), and I believe these are the people mentioned in 1 John 2:18-19. To sum all of this up in a concise manner, I believe that those who are truly saved are the ones who endure to the end, because their initial point of salvation (spiritual birth) is manifested through their lives as a continuing process. This is what James talks about: if you're truly saved, then the fruit your life produces will bear this out. Those who do not endure did not count the cost and looked for salvation as a one-time event, not a continuing process. Thus, these people eventually fall away, because they never experienced true biblical salvation--a process that continues throughout the rest of our lives.

Wow...that was really verbose. If there's something I did not explain well, let me know and I'll try to clarify it. Also, let me add that I do not by any means claim to have the definitive, 100% correct view on this subject, and though I can't speak for Vicky, I truly get the impression from her comments that she would say the same about herself. God in His infinite will has ordained that there are some things about Him that He allows us to understand through His word, and there are some things that we will never truly be able to understand on this side of heaven. But that's how it should be. After all, He's God and we're not...how could we ever hope to fully understand God when He is so much bigger and so much grander and so much more incredible than anything we will ever see or hear?

So remember, when all of us discuss these issues where there's no clear Biblical mandate one way or the other, our sole aim should not be to try to prove we're right or we're wrong. Instead, we should share our interpretations through what we've seen in the Word. It's then up to each person to do as the Bereans did in Acts 17:10-11 and examine the Scriptures for themselves to see if the things we say are true. If the Word supports it, wonderful--it means we've been able to learn from this. If it does not, this is still a good thing--it means we've been able to use the Scriptures to identify a wrong teaching, so we still grow through the process. If we can stick to this process during these discussions and avoid getting into personal attacks or mindsets where we're completely unwilling to see any position except our own (unless the Bible gives an unmistakable position), then these discussions can be extremely beneficial to all of us. If we can't, I fear we'll have to steer clear of them in the future.

nathanmitchell

Vicky,

Thank you for discussing thoughts on the salvation last knight after reading through scriptures I really learned a lot about Christ. Please know that I think what your doing on this blog is great being to talk through our understanding of bible is a blessing to me collaborate with you and others.It took a lot of courage for me to respond to this topic because that it is a issue that divides the church and really would encourage anyone post here to do so with respect to others in loving way.

In Christ,

Nathan

rawkalways

wow.

Jonathan Paul

It seems to me that if this whole point was made absolutely undeniably crystal clear in scripture then everyone who reads the Bible carefully and studies diligently aided by the Holy Spirit would come to the same conclusion. This does not seem to be the case. There are some people who love God dearly and make a careful study who come to one conclusion and others who do the same and fall on the other side of the fence.

In a discussion like this, I sometimes find it hard to know which points to address and which to simply let fall by the wayside. In any case, I think it's important for all of us to remember to present our thoughts in such a way so that they come across as both kind and persuasive and thus are more likely to be helpful to those reading.

That said, I'd like to try to address just one point brought up by "B" regarding Colossians 1:23 (coincidentally on Saturday 3/21). :o) I understand that the context for this verse is the supremacy of Christ. But that doesn't negate the possibility of Paul making other points within this context. The framework of verses 21 through 23 is: a) we were alienated from God, b) Christ through His death has reconciled us to God, c) if we continue in our faith. Alienation followed by reconciliation which is apparently contingent on our continuing in faith. If Paul's intent was to communicate that God reconciles us regardless of any choice or action on our part, he could simply omitted that last conditional phrase (c). "B" states that the Greek says the exact opposite of the English but leaves us without much specific information that allows us to examine this possibility. I'm doubtful that the several translations I've looked at this afternoon are all really that bad, but I'm open to hearing more details.

b/

Let me first state to everyone that I apologize for how my post came across. I really meant it all with respect. Unfortunately, after reading it, I believe it came across with less love than what I had intended. Indeed I appreciate Jeff T's post which comes across with a stronger hold of grace than mine.

In response to Jonathan Paul: I felt that I did give specific information by pointing out what Paul is saying when he says "if." Though, clearly I did not do a very good job explaining what that "if" means. The English just doesn't capture what the original language was saying. You suggest that "If Paul's intent was to communicate that God reconciles us regardless of any choice or action on our part, he could simply omitted that last conditional phrase." What I'm saying is that the response is not conditional at all.

In the Greek the if is not a conditional clause, rather, "In the Greek, the “if” indicates an assumption of truth. Paul assumes that the Colossians will continue in the faith. This is not an “if” of the future; it is an “if” of the past. The word can be translated “since.” “Since indeed you continue in the faith.” Our reconciliation is an accomplished fact. Continuance is a test of reality. There is no uncertainty of the believer’s reconciliation. The believer will be uncharged and without blemish when he stands before God (v. 22). Salvation was an accomplished event at the moment of faith." Dr. Grant Richison

Jonathan Paul

Thanks for your heart on this, B. I think we've all been guilty of that sort of thing and much worse before. :o) I take your apology as a sign of maturity. Thanks also for the response about the Greek. I still don't agree on the interpretation of that verse, but I do better understand your point, and I appreciate you taking the time to help with that!

rawkalways

thanx for pointing out your views.
I think its important that we not try to pull out of scripture what we want it to say, we should let God just tell us what he means in all this. if you ask me I dont think God is very vague.

Beth

Vicky, I think what you're saying makes sense. I didn't post on the original thread because I don't know anything about anything, but the parable of the sower kept popping into my mind. I also think it makes sense that God wouldn't override free will, even if it meant his own heart breaking. Thinking of that makes me love him even more.

I'm glad you shared what you think with us, and I hope you will continue to do so.

Jeff T.

Much love and respect to "b/"! My research discovered much of the same problems with pulling verses out of context.

Another aspect to consider is that God repeatedly refers to us as His "children". There is no way that what that implies is an oversight on His part. Here's what I mean...

If I have a son, and that son runs off and lives like an absolute degenerate... is he still my son?

If he dies as an absolute degenerate... is he still my son?

Of course he is! God says that we have been "adopted" by Him. That is the most accurate picture of the beautiful grace of God.

In case we all haven't figured it out by now, God's grace is ridiculous. It's illogical. It's unfair.

If we're honest, I think we'd realize that many of us desire it to be true that we could lose our salvation because it would give us a greater role in the salvation process and would ensure that no "bad" people go to Heaven. Firstly, the NT makes it clear that Christ's work on the Cross was designed to ensure that "none may boast" and every ounce of glory would go to Jesus Christ. We should tread extremely carefully when it comes to claiming a bigger role in salvation than we have...

We also like to think that somehow we're "better" than other people (e.g. those who have "fallen away") and that plays a role in us getting to Heaven. We can't fully process that a believer who falls away and becomes a rapist would still go to Heaven. It doesn't sit right with our idea of justice.

The brutal and glorious truth is that there is nothing "just" about our salvation - we don't deserve it even one ounce more than the worst person who ever lived. Tying our behavior to our salvation is way around that "problematic" piece of theology...

Karyne Whalen

I wanted to just quickly address the last comment...sorry Vicky I am not speaking on your behalf but am making an observation! I don't think Vicky is pulling things out of context. She has her theology degree from Oxford and must very well know!! :) Just my "2 cents!!"

Jeff T.

I agree with Brandi. All of us have tons of love for Vicki but I'm sure she would be the first to admit she doesn't have it all figured out (none of us do!).

I'm also 110% confident that Vicki would never imply that she's correct because of a piece of paper (degree)!

I'm sure this will be taken out of context but it' sour individual responsibility to know our Christian theology and research it FOR OURSELVES. One of the biggest challenges to accurate Biblical theology is the epidemic of believers whose entire theology is second-hand (i.e. they heard it from someone else).

On matters like this, don't EVER just go on someone else's word - research it for yourself. The Bible even explicitly tells us to test these types of issues against the Word FOR OURSELVES.

Brandi

oh my. i have felt no need to make my opinion known regarding this subject... but if a theology degree from oxford means someone "must very well know" and is immune to "pulling things out of context" ..... well. then why doesn't Jesus just came back right now? If all that can be known about Him is made known through a theology degree from Oxford & that piece of paper showing hours of education at that particular school studying theology means that you will never speak another untrue word about Jesus or that your opinions about Him are absolutely correct without fail.... then why are more people not studying theology at Oxford instead of wasting time arguing on this blog?

I do not mean to be sassy or offensive. I simply say all that to say... regardless of where one has studied we are all prone to error. There are a lot of highly educated people who believe absolutely ridiculous things. So, don't be so quick to believe or trust everything someone speaks or writes just because they are educated. (Not pointing this in Vicky's direction.. just in general.)

Im afraid if you continue on that pattern you will find yourself misled & lazy (much like many before you & alongside you in the church). Study, discern, press in & KNOW Jesus for yourself. :)

b/

This is rather long, but I too felt that the subject needed extensive treatment. I hope this does not come across as offense, it is not intended, just a passionate dissent.

It is difficult to argue against "Scriptural support" when it is pulled out of its context. It appears as though much of your support are one verse or two that is plopped down without explanation. That is, in most of these you have placed your thoughts on a phrase in parenthesis. When not in context and without the aid of the original Greek or Hebrew, most of these definitely support your view that one can "lose salvation."

For instance, if I pull Colossians 1.23 out of its context, you could use it for your argument here, and I am surprised actually that it did not show up. That verse would say out of context, "if you continue in your faith, established and firm..." The parenthesis might say, (sounds like there is a possibility that some won't continue in their faith).

If we put that verse into context (Col. 1.15-28), however, and allow the original language to speak to the original audience before bringing it to 2009 we have a completely different interpretation. The context is the Apostle Paul arguing for the supremacy of Christ in all things, even salvation (and "through him" to reconcile "to Himself"... but now "He" has reconciled you [not the other way around]).

The original Greek also reveals a great deal in that the "if" seen in verse 23 is in the indicative tense, meaning, what Paul is really saying is, "there is actually no way you could not continue in your faith and remain established and firm, and I'm only saying 'if', but really there is no way you could not."

Context and language.

In Mark 13 Jesus is addressing specific people, His disciples, who have asked very specific questions. He addresses his disciples very specifically saying, "You must be on your guard. You will be handed over to the local councils and flogged in the synagogues. On account of me you will stand before governors and kings as witnesses to them. 10And the gospel must first be preached to all nations. 11Whenever you are arrested and brought to trial, do not worry beforehand about what to say. Just say whatever is given you at the time, for it is not you speaking, but the Holy Spirit.

12"Brother will betray brother to death, and a father his child. Children will rebel against their parents and have them put to death. 13All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved."

According to early church history, the disciples fulfilled these things, save Judas who was actually out of the circle before the crucifixion and resurrection, events that had to take place before the things Jesus spoke of. They all stood until their end. Sounds like this goes against your parenthetical thought.

Context.

Furthermore, you put words in Jesus' mouth that suggest people will not stand firm to the end when He never speaks those words. You infer when He did not necessarily imply.

The context of 1 Corinthians 9.27 is Paul arguing his apostleship, not his salvation (v 3. 'this is my defense to those who sit in judgment of me.') The entire chapter of 1 Corinthians 9 is arguing Paul's gift or calling of apostleship that has been placed on him. Furthermore, the word disqualified is translated from the word adokimos. Every other time Paul uses this word it is in reference to his test as an apostle. One author writes, "The fact that no instance of the use of adokimos or a cognate referring to Paul relates to the test of faith or salvation, rather, that every instance has to do with his fitness as an apostle raises doubts about the view that adokimos in 1 Cor. 9:27 means rejected from salvation and suggests instead that it means rejected as an apostle (Gundry-Volf, 236-7).

Context and language.

Your "interpretation" of Matthew 24 is fundamentally flawed because you treat is as a real life example thus doing violence to the text. This is a parable. Not every element of a parable is directly translatable and this is one of the first principle rules in proper exegesis. You suggest that the man is a servant of the Master using a capital "M" when the text does not do so and you also suggest that the man is a 'follower of Jesus,' once again, adding meaning to the text which is not to be found. He is speaking of an earthly master and proper exegsis will not allow us to say Jesus is referring to His servant.

In Psalm 51 you have a man, David, who is asking God to not take His spirit from him. This is a man's request because he knows the pain of people leaving Him. The first problem with using this text is that God never said He would leave, David's request does not indicate an action that would ever be done on God's part. That is, David supposes God would leave, God never says that. The second problem with using this text to support your position is that this is an Old Covenant text. The Spirit has not yet been sent as a seal.

In the New Covenant, the Spirit has been sent as a seal and this is what Paul says about that in 2 Corinthians 1, "18But as surely as God is faithful, our message to you is not "Yes" and "No." 19For the Son of God, Jesus Christ, who was preached among you by me and Silas[b] and Timothy, was not "Yes" and "No," but in him it has always been "Yes." 20For no matter how many promises God has made, they are "Yes" in Christ. And so through him the "Amen" is spoken by us to the glory of God. 21Now it is God who makes both us and you stand firm in Christ. He anointed us, 22set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.

We don't make ourselves saved. God makes us stand firm in Christ. He set His seal of ownership on us. In doing this he guarantees what is to come, namely, abundant life which begins now, not at some future point.

I am actually appalled by the last argument. The first error is that you suppose you can link all these scriptures and apply them to this one person. You suggest that Judas' name was in the book of life. What passage of Scripture says Judas' name was written in the book of life? (Ex 32 is written to a specific group of people and if it is written to all people at all times, then we are all screwed because we have all sinned against Him). How do you know that Judas' name was blotted out? None of us has seen that book and the Scripture never says, "Judas' name was blotted out."

You suggest that Judas healed the sick and delivered people and used Matt. 10 as your support. Again, context shows that the 12 are not involved in this passage. Matthew 10.1 says, "[Jesus] appointed 72 others..." indicating that Jesus appointed others, not the 12.

It seems very audacious to suggest that any one of us could claim whose name was written in the book of life and whose name has been blotted out.

I feel that my response has been too long, but no argument is complete without addressing both sides. And since I have already addressed much of the arguments for the "fall away" side, a few brief verses for the perseverance of the saints will do. Which I would argue, based on Paul and Peter's writings is actually the view held by the early church.

Peter writes, "1 Peter 1:5 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to his great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to obtain an inheritance which is imperishable and undefiled and will not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time."

He caused us to be born again. We therefore have an inheritance which is imperishable and undefiled and will not fade away. John Piper writes, "There are no commandments in the first 12 verses of this letter. No demands or requirements or directions. What Peter is doing here is not telling us what to do but telling us what to enjoy. He is not exhorting, he is exulting."

In reference to salvation in Romans 8 and a life in the spirit, Paul writes, "29For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

Those he predestined to be conformed he called, he justified, and he glorified. All of these words are in the past tense. They have already been accomplished. We live in the confines of time and space and therefore cannot understand completely this passage and we can clearly see that we are not presently glorified, but He who does not live in space and time has already glorified us. Will He then unglorify us?

Paul goes on to say about our relationship with Christ Jesus, "38For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord."

What I would argue is that the "nor anything else in all creation" would even refer to our "supposed" ability to be able to reject Christ.

The argument begs the question, "What exactly are we saved to?" I would say abundant life in Christ which includes eternal life. As you argue for John 3.16, "...shall not perish but have eternal life."

Eternity has no end or beginning. If we are saved to eternal life, then it cannot come to an end.

"He who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus." Philippians 1. I do not negate the fact that we are called to do a good work. In fact our life in Him should cause good works to naturally pour out from us. But the work of salvation, justification, sanctification and glorification are on Him (Romans 8). He began the good work and He will carry it on to completion.

Jeff T.

I'll post more thoughts in a while but first off, a strong case could me made for tossing out all of the OT verses (as it relates to this specific subject). Christ's death on the Cross completely changed the salvation "equation" and one could very easily see how those verses may no longer apply. Are they valuable? Of course! But they're there to show us how hopeless things were before the Cross.

I would also encourage you to look at the verses and research which ones apply to Israel and not to Christians. The Israelites were (and still are) God's chosen people but they "departed" form Him by refusing accept Jesus as their Savior. This is a completely different issue to believers losing their salvation. Additionally, the Lord promises to bring Israel back to Himself in the last days.

I need to do more research before I comment on the rest of the verses. The Judas question is easily the most interesting point to consider.

Finally, I don't think the discussion can be considered completely serious until the original language in each verse has been considered. Putting such weight onto a word like "departed" isn't really accurate unless the original meaning of the word has been researched (as it may translate slightly differently).

There's never a bad time for a theological discussion!

Alastair Vance

Oooo, don't you go starting an Israel discussion too. One thing at a time mate. Hah hah.

Richard Tham

PETER & JUDAS
The examples of Judas and Peter were brought up so I went to share a few thoughts. Both of these men failed Jesus miserably but how they reacted to their failure is a key.Judas sold Jesus for 30 pieces of silver and then went and hanged himself. Peter denied Jesus but didn't hang himself but instead he hung around Jesus. Three times Peter denied Him and then three times Jesus reaffirmed Him in John 21. Even though we may fail we serve a God who is willing to forgive us. So often people think that God cannot accept them because what they have done. However, God shows us that He loves us by showing what HIs son did for us.Sometimes I believe that Christians can hinder people new believers grow. For example when a person comes to Christ we give them list of rules of what they should and should not do rather than allow the Holy Spirit to convict them. As a result, their roots never seem to sink deep in the soil and they fall away from Christ.

FREE WILL VS PREDESTINATION
This is another huge topic so I am going to try to be brief. I believe that God is OMNSCIENT (all knowing). Psalm 139 tells us that God knows every detail of our lives. However, I believe that God is love and God created us with a free will giving us the ability to choice right and wrong. As a result, God created consequences for people's choice (Heaven and Hell). I believe everybody has chance to come to Christ. What about the people that never hear the gospel? I think Romans 1:20 answers this "For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse." The problem I have with predestination is that takes away the ability to choose. It kinda makes us sounds that God is "pulling our strings" so that we can move (kinda like someone pulling strings on a puppet to make it move). If everything is pre-determined by God, why wouldn't make He make a world of no pain, no suffering, no evil, no death... and how does he choose people.... does he pull names out of a hat? God knows what I have done (past), God knows what I am doing (present) and God knows what I will do (future). However, I believe that He gives me the ability to choose right and wrong and as a result I will suffer consequences based on my choices. God knows what choices I will make but He does not force me in decision making process. Love gives people the ability to choose what they will do. What if God would stop us everytime we were going to make a wrong decision... how would we ever learn and grow?

THEOLOGICAL DISCUSSIONS
Sometimes I believe that theological discussions can be more of a hinderance than good. It could cause church splits, cause people to turn away from God or turn to another religion or cult. However, there are times I find theological discussions to be very helpful. The most important thing I learned is too be senstive to other people's opinons. Not everyone will share the same opinon as I do so I have to be slow to judge. There are many theological discussions that are not black & white and have strong supporting points for different view points. I find these discussions useful for three reasons 1) It allows me to hear different view points - It gives others opportunity to express how they feel even though I may agree or disagree 2) It challenges me - it gives others the opportunity to challenge what I believe 3) it creates an opportunity for me to research what i have read - It may not necessarily change my thinking but it may add to what I already believe. I also sometimes having theological discussions with people of different religions to be helpful. It allows me to understand how they think and gives me opportunity to find ways of reaching them for Jesus Christ.

Nathan Arnold

It is true that we can become wrapped up in theological debate and in such cease to be the hands and feet of Christ. However, I do think that study and preparation is a key part to effective ministry. Without it we can very easily take scripture out of context and distort the truth of God to our own purposes. We see this all over the place as folk who claim to be followers of Christ living anything but Christ centered lives and deal in fear, hate, anger and operate elitist clubs.

As Proverbs 27:17 says, "As iron sharpens iron so one man sharpens another". It's also interesting to note that Christ did not begin his ministry until he was 30 (according to Luke 3:23). All we know about the time from 12 (At the temple when his parents were leaving town) to 30 is In Luke 2:51-52, "Then he went down to Nazareth with them and was obedient to them. But his mother treasured all these things in her heart. And Jesus grew in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and men." Jesus took 18 years to learn and grow in wisdom, and it is reasonable to think a good portion of time was spent listening and engaging in debate at the temple.

So yes, I agree we should always keep living for God and not just talking. However, talk is good too.

Great post Vicky.

nathanmitchell

Vicky,

This discussion has been awesome below is some of my responese to your answers more to come later.

Gods love:

Yes I do agree with loves so much that He made us in Image that we would that God desires for us is satisfied in His Glory.

Genesis 1:26 -30

26Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness. And let them have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over the livestock and over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth."
27So God created man in his own image,
in the image of God he created him;
male and female he created them.
28And God blessed them. And God said to them, "Be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth and subdue it and have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over every living thing that moves on the earth." 29And God said, "Behold, I have given you every plant yielding seed that is on the face of all the earth, and every tree with seed in its fruit. You shall have them for food. 30And to every beast of the earth and to every bird of the heavens and to everything that creeps on the earth, everything that has the breath of life, I have given every green plant for food." And it was so. 31 And God saw everything that he had made, and behold, it was very good. And there was evening and there was morning, the sixth day.
We must also understand the Holiness of God which is part of His love for us.

Isaiah 6:1-7
Isaiah’s Vision of the Lord
1In the year that King Uzziah died I saw the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up; and the train of his robe filled the temple. 2Above him stood the seraphim. Each had six wings: with two he covered his face, and with two he covered his feet, and with two he flew. 3And one called to another and said:

"Holy, holy, holy is the LORD of hosts; the whole earth is full of his glory!"
4And the foundations of the thresholds shook at the voice of him who called, and the house was filled with smoke. 5And I said: "Woe is me! For I am lost; for I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips; for my eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts!"
6Then one of the seraphim flew to me, having in his hand a burning coal that he had taken with tongs from the altar. 7And he touched my mouth and said: "Behold, this has touched your lips; your guilt is taken away, and your sin atoned for."
Yes I also agree that GOD gave Adam &Eve the freewill to eat from tree knowledge good & evil.

Genesis 2:16-17

16And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, "You may surely eat of every tree of the garden, 17but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die."

GOD’S IDENTITY AS JUDGE:
Yes I agree that believe that his judgment is the expression of his love.

Romans 2:12-16

God’s Judgment and the Law
12For all who have sinned without the law will also perish without the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law. 13For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified. 14For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them 16on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus.

PREDESTINATION: I do not believe in partial atonement the gospel available for everyone who wants to receive it.

John 3:16
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.”

Yes Gods’ omniepresence is more descriptive word to use rather than predestination because it shows always present.

Romans 8:18-30

Future Glory
18For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worth comparing with the glory that is to be revealed to us. 19For the creation waits with eager longing for the revealing of the sons of God. 20For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of him who subjected it, in hope 21that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to corruption and obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God. 22For we know that the whole creation has been groaning together in the pains of childbirth until now. 23And not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. 24For in this hope we were saved. Now hope that is seen is not hope. For who hopes for what he sees? 25But if we hope for what we do not see, we wait for it with patience.
26Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness. For we do not know what to pray for as we ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words. 27And he who searches hearts knows what is the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God. 28And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. 29For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.
Works: yes work is important which does result good fruit and “faith without works is dead. Emphasis should be put faith Martin Luther discovered.

Romans 1:16-17

The Righteous Shall Live by Faith
16For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 17For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith for faith, as it is written, "The righteous shall live by faith."

Church History:

Yes also agree that was not much discussion among the early church about various divisions about the doctrine of salvation. Christians have played major role in church history Irenaeus, Augustine and luther. Their other also but I don’t have to right now to discuss that more to come.

In Christ,

Nathan

Sarah

While I appreciate debate and intellectual discussion.. I have to wonder what good comes of a debate such as this one?? Will the words said here win a heart for Jesus??

It seems, in discussions like these, that fear, doubt and pride are the main emotions and I just can't figure out how that is good....

I am not accusing anyone of anything because I haven't even read everyone's comments, nor have I read the entire post.. so please don't assume I am talking about a particular person.. I am referring to "theological" discussions in general.

How about we ask Jesus what He wants us to do.. and then go and do that. :)

Blessings,
Sarah

Jeff T.

Sarah - what could possibly be MORE important than ensuring we are accurately interpreting the Scriptures?

This very type of discussion was constantly taking place in and around synagogues and the temple during the time of Christ. In fact, Jesus Himself regularly engaged in conversations exactly like this!

Why? Because He wanted to ensure that He laid out true theology with clarity. I would imagine that nothing would dismay our Savior more than to see us have a flippant attitude about interpreting the Scriptures!

Also - just because discussion is passionate, doesn't mean it's negative. If there was ever a subject that we SHOULD be passionate about - wouldn't our theology be it?

The key is every poster being genuinely interested in TRUTH and not just winning the argument...

Sarah

Jeff.. are you referring to when Jesus schooled the Pharisees?? ;) Of course he wanted everyone to hear true theology and those lovely Pharisees were way off base.

Yes, studying the Word of God is imperative.. Where does it say in the Bible we should debate with one another??

Our time here on earth is so short...

Jonathan Paul

I love your heart on that, Sarah. I think you're exactly right; we ought to listen to what Jesus tells us to do and then go do it! But isn't one of the ways that He chooses to speak to us through other Christians? To me, it's a matter of balance. I have to agree though that our tendency often leans toward too much talking and too little doing!

Sarah

Absolutely.. God can certainly speak to us through anyone for His glory. But, I am wondering how does this kind of discussion bring Him glory??

Jonathan Paul

Thanks for the reply! That's a fair question, and I think one key is the posture each of our hearts during the discussion and how we approach each other while we're at it. (What is our goal, and how are we working to get there?)

I noticed that there were a few comments from people who felt that they learned more about the Bible through this discussion. For myself, I had a couple of (real, live, away from the keyboard) discussions about this that I wouldn't have otherwise had, and I think they are helping me to move toward a better understanding of scripture. And this helps us better understand what Jesus tells us to do!

Your question is about whether or not this kind of discussion is a good one to have. Another question that popped into my mind today is what is the most effective forum or environment for this type of discussion, and what times are most fitting. What do you think?

Sarah

Hmm.. Jonathan.. that is a very good question.. My first thought that came to mind is.. the local church. When we believers start debating theology back and forth without mediation.. it can get ugly really quick. The safety and covering of a local church pastor would solve that.. imho. :)

What did you think a good environment would be??

Jonathan Paul

I like you're response, Sarah. Thanks! And since you asked for my humble opinion as well, I'll give it to you! :o) It plays a bit of the "devil's advocate" to your line of thought...

I don't think the discussion has gotten too outta hand on the blog here yet. If that were to happen, I'm sure Vicky would be capable of reeling us all back in. :o) So far though it seems like we've all been doing our best to be constructive and respectful of others.

I think it's great when we're able to advantage of new tools and technology. This past weekend, our pastor took questions at the end of the service - by text message. It worked out really well; people were able to submit questions in an orderly way (including those at several remote locations watching via satelite). A few of the best questions were then able to be addressed to the benefit of everyone.

I think having these theological discussions online allows more of us from a greater diversity of backgrounds and locations to participate than would otherwise be possible. On the other hand, I think it'd be more fun if we were all in the same room with mugs of our favorite hot beverages in our hands, a good roaring fire going in the fireplace and some good music on in the background... I guess we can't have everything though! :o)

Bethany

The sad part is, if this is true, our salvation depends on us, not God and his faithfulness.

Jonathan Paul

God is faithful to offer salvation, but is He obligated to force us to accept?

We are not the authors of our salvation, but it seems to me that we must have some role in either accepting or rejecting it.

isaac

Is the purpose of the gospel just for us to be save us from hell? in my opinion, no . it is to reconnect us to the living god, union with christ. he is a jealous god that want all of us because he demands everything. His grace and mercy extend beyond what we can ever do but we must produce good fruit.

john 15
1"I am the(A) true vine, and my Father is(B) the vinedresser. 2(C) Every branch in me that does not bear fruit(D) he takes away, and every branch that does bear fruit he prunes,(E) that it may bear more fruit. 3Already(F) you are clean(G) because of the word that I have spoken to you. 4(H) Abide(I) in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit by itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in me. 5I am the vine;(J) you are the branches. Whoever abides in me and I in him, he it is that(K) bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing. 6If anyone does not abide in me(L) he is thrown away like a branch and withers;(M) and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire, and burned. 7If(N) you abide in me, and my words abide in you,(O) ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. 8(P) By this my Father is glorified, that you(Q) bear much fruit and so prove to be my disciples. 9(R) As the Father has loved me,(S) so have I loved you. Abide in my love. 10(T) If you keep my commandments, you will abide in my love, just as(U) I have kept(V) my Father’s commandments and abide in his love. 11These things I have spoken to you,(W) that my joy may be in you, and that(X) your joy may be full.

we will fail, sin again and fall away till the day we die. i think its funny how jesus gave peter his name, the rock. when jesus also calls him satan and his denial. jesus still saw the potentional in him, because even his with his failures jesus knows what he will become.

Karyne Whalen

Thank you for your response! Good post and good discussion! :) It keeps us all on our toes and searching scripture!!

Jonathan Paul

I love this post; thanks for putting so much thought and heart into it!!! And to think you had to type this twice, wow.

If I remember correctly, my parents don't agree completely on the subject of this debate. My own view is that we can actually choose Christ and wander away, but hopefully we're each living in such a way that regardless of the truth on this topic we're far from where it would make any difference.

I really appreciated all the scripture you used to back things up, and your example about the school teacher really stood out to me!

About 1 Chronicles 28:9 – does this mean that those who fall away from Christ can never return? If not, how should we take this?

Stephen

Great post. I agree with you and scripture backs you up. :)

GayleO

Wow, this is marvellous work! You've really thought hard about this.. This is another subject that I find very challenging. I've had conversations with my husband that raise ideas that I've never even thought about before (having not studied theology like him..) and that change my whole perception on topics like this. I don't pretend to know the answers, but here's a few things to throw into the mix:
* John 6:39 "And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day." To me, Jesus says in that verse that He won't lose any of those people that the Father has given him.
* This whole thing about 'free will'.. Hmmm, I used to think that, but some passages in the Bible give a different picture. Check: Ephesians 2:8,9: "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast." Everything is a gift. We always say that a person cannot see Christ, cannot understand the mystery, cannot become a Christian unless God the Holy Spirit opens their eyes to Him, right?! If that is the case, then there needs to be a work of God in someone before they confess Christ as Lord. There is a work in someone's heart by the Holy Spirit THEN we respond. In Christ, God is the initiator in restoring our relationship with Him. For us as individuals, then, God is the initiator in restoring our personal relationship with Him. Faith is a gift of God 'so that no one can boast'. If that is so, if we talk about making our own choice for Christ, doesn't that then make some of the redeeming work down to us? Doesn't that then make the effectiveness of Christ's sacrifice to save dependent on our response? We cannot boast in anything, not even in a 'decision' we have made; we boast in Christ. In Romans 9 (the whole chapter is on the Sovereignty of God!!) Paul quotes God saying, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." and later Paul sums up saying, "Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.". God shows mercy on who He wants, He chooses who to save, and hardens the hearts of others. Why? I don't know, but He does.
* My husband has challenged me on a number of issues that I thought I had already formed opinions of in my head. There are a number of spiritual topics that I found hard, and yet I managed to find an explanations that satisfied me. However, my husband always says, 'what does the Bible say?'. Even if it's a hard question, 'What does the Bible say?'. Even if what the Bible says makes me feel uncomfortable, 'What does the Bible say?'. Even if what the Bible says portrays a picture of God that I'm not accustomed to or comfortable with, 'What does the Bible say?'. So, when Paul says in Ephesians 1:11 'In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will', does that mean that God didn't predestine according to His plan and purposes? When Paul says in Romans 8:29 'For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son', does that mean God didn't predestine many to be conformed to the likeness of Jesus?? And when he says in Ephesians 1:5 'he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ', does that mean God didn't predestine us to be adopted??? I had a period where I didn't believe in predestination, that I took your view of God being omniscient and knowing everything that He could see all time and therefore know where, when and how we would respond to him. But the Bible says we were predestined. The Bible says we were chosen. I couldn't argue with the inspired word of God no matter how I couldn't get my head round it!!

Sorry if these are tangential to your original topic. I'm no theology scholar so I haven't read as widely as you on all the other spiritual thinkers, but this is my two penneth worth. Keep dipping into the Word that brings light and life (Ps. 19...) and may God continue to bless your ministry! Oh, and enjoy your trip to England in the near future - the weather here is glorious at the moment!! You won't need your raincoat this time! ;oP

Sarah D

Vicky, I think you've argued your point amazingly well! I have to be honest and say I don't actually agree theologically but appreciate you taking the time to properly present your views and argue them Biblically. I think some of the problem is that both opposing views can very legitimately be argued from Scripture which makes the debate all the more interesting.

I'd love to see you grapple with some of the texts that would traditionally be used to hold to the doctrine of predestination etc - Romans 9 would be a classic, especially as you site Paul's 'fear and trembling' as support for your position, it'd be interesting to compare and contrast the bits of 'Paul' that each side (for want of a better phrase) use!

i have been watching this debate a bit and waited for your response, so thanks again!
I'm pretty new to your blog and love your passion for God, honesty and strong Biblical grounding.

Next time you're in London I'd love to meet up for a Starbucks and chat over a coffee - in a totally non wierd way!!

I work for a church as the youth worker and would love to hear more on how you find things as a woman in ministry - is it different in the US to the UK?

Enough from me, just as an aside - loving 'the wonder of the Cross' at the moment - the lyrics are outstanding.

Much love
Sarah D

Laura Anderson

I totally agree. Wow, you put a lot of thought and time into this. Awesome. I think you hit it dead on.

nigel

partic agree with comment based in James, works flow from faith naturally,not as a command or dictate.
Await your book or new album, "Once saved always saved"