Once Saved, Always Saved?

I totally agree. Wow, you put a lot of thought and time into this. Awesome. I think you hit it dead on.

Wow, this is marvellous work! You've really thought hard about this.. This is another subject that I find very challenging. I've had conversations with my husband that raise ideas that I've never even thought about before (having not studied theology like him..) and that change my whole perception on topics like this. I don't pretend to know the answers, but here's a few things to throw into the mix:
* John 6:39 “And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day.” To me, Jesus says in that verse that He won't lose any of those people that the Father has given him.
* This whole thing about 'free will'.. Hmmm, I used to think that, but some passages in the Bible give a different picture. Check: Ephesians 2:8,9: “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast.” Everything is a gift. We always say that a person cannot see Christ, cannot understand the mystery, cannot become a Christian unless God the Holy Spirit opens their eyes to Him, right?! If that is the case, then there needs to be a work of God in someone before they confess Christ as Lord. There is a work in someone's heart by the Holy Spirit THEN we respond. In Christ, God is the initiator in restoring our relationship with Him. For us as individuals, then, God is the initiator in restoring our personal relationship with Him. Faith is a gift of God 'so that no one can boast'. If that is so, if we talk about making our own choice for Christ, doesn't that then make some of the redeeming work down to us? Doesn't that then make the effectiveness of Christ's sacrifice to save dependent on our response? We cannot boast in anything, not even in a 'decision' we have made; we boast in Christ. In Romans 9 (the whole chapter is on the Sovereignty of God!!) Paul quotes God saying, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” and later Paul sums up saying, “Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.”. God shows mercy on who He wants, He chooses who to save, and hardens the hearts of others. Why? I don't know, but He does.
* My husband has challenged me on a number of issues that I thought I had already formed opinions of in my head. There are a number of spiritual topics that I found hard, and yet I managed to find an explanations that satisfied me. However, my husband always says, 'what does the Bible say?'. Even if it's a hard question, 'What does the Bible say?'. Even if what the Bible says makes me feel uncomfortable, 'What does the Bible say?'. Even if what the Bible says portrays a picture of God that I'm not accustomed to or comfortable with, 'What does the Bible say?'. So, when Paul says in Ephesians 1:11 'In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will', does that mean that God didn't predestine according to His plan and purposes? When Paul says in Romans 8:29 'For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son', does that mean God didn't predestine many to be conformed to the likeness of Jesus?? And when he says in Ephesians 1:5 'he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ', does that mean God didn't predestine us to be adopted??? I had a period where I didn't believe in predestination, that I took your view of God being omniscient and knowing everything that He could see all time and therefore know where, when and how we would respond to him. But the Bible says we were predestined. The Bible says we were chosen. I couldn't argue with the inspired word of God no matter how I couldn't get my head round it!!

Sorry if these are tangential to your original topic. I'm no theology scholar so I haven't read as widely as you on all the other spiritual thinkers, but this is my two penneth worth. Keep dipping into the Word that brings light and life (Ps. 19…) and may God continue to bless your ministry! Oh, and enjoy your trip to England in the near future – the weather here is glorious at the moment!! You won't need your raincoat this time! ;oP

I love this post; thanks for putting so much thought and heart into it!!! And to think you had to type this twice, wow.

If I remember correctly, my parents don't agree completely on the subject of this debate. My own view is that we can actually choose Christ and wander away, but hopefully we're each living in such a way that regardless of the truth on this topic we're far from where it would make any difference.

I really appreciated all the scripture you used to back things up, and your example about the school teacher really stood out to me!

About 1 Chronicles 28:9 – does this mean that those who fall away from Christ can never return? If not, how should we take this?

Is the purpose of the gospel just for us to be save us from hell? in my opinion, no . it is to reconnect us to the living god, union with christ. he is a jealous god that want all of us because he demands everything. His grace and mercy extend beyond what we can ever do but we must produce good fruit.

john 15
1″I am the(A) true vine, and my Father is(B) the vinedresser. 2(C) Every branch in me that does not bear fruit(D) he takes away, and every branch that does bear fruit he prunes,(E) that it may bear more fruit. 3Already(F) you are clean(G) because of the word that I have spoken to you. 4(H) Abide(I) in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit by itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in me. 5I am the vine;(J) you are the branches. Whoever abides in me and I in him, he it is that(K) bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing. 6If anyone does not abide in me(L) he is thrown away like a branch and withers;(M) and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire, and burned. 7If(N) you abide in me, and my words abide in you,(O) ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. 8(P) By this my Father is glorified, that you(Q) bear much fruit and so prove to be my disciples. 9(R) As the Father has loved me,(S) so have I loved you. Abide in my love. 10(T) If you keep my commandments, you will abide in my love, just as(U) I have kept(V) my Father’s commandments and abide in his love. 11These things I have spoken to you,(W) that my joy may be in you, and that(X) your joy may be full.

we will fail, sin again and fall away till the day we die. i think its funny how jesus gave peter his name, the rock. when jesus also calls him satan and his denial. jesus still saw the potentional in him, because even his with his failures jesus knows what he will become.

God is faithful to offer salvation, but is He obligated to force us to accept?

We are not the authors of our salvation, but it seems to me that we must have some role in either accepting or rejecting it.

I love your heart on that, Sarah. I think you're exactly right; we ought to listen to what Jesus tells us to do and then go do it! But isn't one of the ways that He chooses to speak to us through other Christians? To me, it's a matter of balance. I have to agree though that our tendency often leans toward too much talking and too little doing!

Vicky,

This discussion has been awesome below is some of my responese to your answers more to come later.

Gods love:

Yes I do agree with loves so much that He made us in Image that we would that God desires for us is satisfied in His Glory.

Genesis 1:26 -30

26Then God said, “Let us make man in our image, after our likeness. And let them have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over the livestock and over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.”
27So God created man in his own image,
in the image of God he created him;
male and female he created them.
28And God blessed them. And God said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth and subdue it and have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over every living thing that moves on the earth.” 29And God said, “Behold, I have given you every plant yielding seed that is on the face of all the earth, and every tree with seed in its fruit. You shall have them for food. 30And to every beast of the earth and to every bird of the heavens and to everything that creeps on the earth, everything that has the breath of life, I have given every green plant for food.” And it was so. 31 And God saw everything that he had made, and behold, it was very good. And there was evening and there was morning, the sixth day.
We must also understand the Holiness of God which is part of His love for us.

Isaiah 6:1-7
Isaiah’s Vision of the Lord
1In the year that King Uzziah died I saw the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up; and the train of his robe filled the temple. 2Above him stood the seraphim. Each had six wings: with two he covered his face, and with two he covered his feet, and with two he flew. 3And one called to another and said:

“Holy, holy, holy is the LORD of hosts; the whole earth is full of his glory!”
4And the foundations of the thresholds shook at the voice of him who called, and the house was filled with smoke. 5And I said: “Woe is me! For I am lost; for I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips; for my eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts!”
6Then one of the seraphim flew to me, having in his hand a burning coal that he had taken with tongs from the altar. 7And he touched my mouth and said: “Behold, this has touched your lips; your guilt is taken away, and your sin atoned for.”
Yes I also agree that GOD gave Adam &Eve the freewill to eat from tree knowledge good & evil.

Genesis 2:16-17

16And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, “You may surely eat of every tree of the garden, 17but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.”

GOD’S IDENTITY AS JUDGE:
Yes I agree that believe that his judgment is the expression of his love.

Romans 2:12-16

God’s Judgment and the Law
12For all who have sinned without the law will also perish without the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law. 13For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified. 14For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them 16on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus.

PREDESTINATION: I do not believe in partial atonement the gospel available for everyone who wants to receive it.

John 3:16
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.”

Yes Gods’ omniepresence is more descriptive word to use rather than predestination because it shows always present.

Romans 8:18-30

Future Glory
18For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worth comparing with the glory that is to be revealed to us. 19For the creation waits with eager longing for the revealing of the sons of God. 20For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of him who subjected it, in hope 21that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to corruption and obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God. 22For we know that the whole creation has been groaning together in the pains of childbirth until now. 23And not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. 24For in this hope we were saved. Now hope that is seen is not hope. For who hopes for what he sees? 25But if we hope for what we do not see, we wait for it with patience.
26Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness. For we do not know what to pray for as we ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words. 27And he who searches hearts knows what is the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God. 28And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. 29For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.
Works: yes work is important which does result good fruit and “faith without works is dead. Emphasis should be put faith Martin Luther discovered.

Romans 1:16-17

The Righteous Shall Live by Faith
16For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 17For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith for faith, as it is written, “The righteous shall live by faith.”

Church History:

Yes also agree that was not much discussion among the early church about various divisions about the doctrine of salvation. Christians have played major role in church history Irenaeus, Augustine and luther. Their other also but I don’t have to right now to discuss that more to come.

In Christ,

Nathan

PETER & JUDAS
The examples of Judas and Peter were brought up so I went to share a few thoughts. Both of these men failed Jesus miserably BUT how they reacted to their failure is a key.Judas sold Jesus for 30 pieces of silver and then went and hanged himself. Peter denied Jesus but didn't hang himself but instead he hung around Jesus. Three times Peter denied Him and then three times Jesus reaffirmed Him in John 21. Even though we may fail we serve a God who is willing to forgive us. So often people think that God cannot accept them because what they have done. However, God shows us that He loves us for what He has done for us.Sometimes I believe that Christians can hinder people new believers grow. For example when a person comes to Christ we give them list of rules of what they should and should not do rather than allow the Holy Spirit to convict them. As a result, their roots never seem to sink deep in the soil and they fall away from Christ.

FREE WILL VS PREDESTINATION

This is another huge topic so I am going to try to be brief. I believe that God is OMNSCIENT (all knowing). Psalm 139 tells us that God knows every detail of our lives. However, I believe that God is love and God created us with a free will giving us the ability to choice right and wrong. As a result, God created consequences for people's choice (Heaven and Hell). I believe everybody has chance to come to Christ. What about the people that never hear the gospel? I think Romans 1:20 answers this “For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.” The problem I have with predestination is that takes away the ability to choose. It kinda makes us sounds that God is “pulling our strings” so that we can move (kinda like someone pulling strings on a puppet to make it move). If everything is pre-determined by God, why wouldn't make He make a world of no pain, no suffering, no evil, no death… and how does he choose people…. does he pull names out of a hat? God knows what I have done (past), God knows what I am doing (present) and God knows what I will do (future). However, I believe that He gives me the ability to choose right and wrong and as a result I will suffer consequences based on my choices. God knows what choice I will make but He does not force me toin my decision making process. Love gives people the ability to choose what they will do. What if God would stop us everytime we were going to make a wrong decision… how would we ever learn and grow?

THEOLOGICAL DISCUSSIONS:
Sometimes I believe that theological discussions can be more of a hinderance than good. It could cause church splits, cause people to turn away from God or turn to another religion or cult. However, there are times I find theological discussions to be very helpful. The most important thing I learned is too be senstive to other people's opinons. Not everyone will share the same opinon as I do so I have to be slow to judge. There are many theological discussions that are not black & white and have strong supporting points for different view points. I find these discussions useful for three reasons 1) It allows me to hear different view points – It gives others opportunity to express how they feel even though I may agree or disagree 2) It challenges me – it gives others the opportunity to challenge what I believe 3) it creates an opportunity for me to research what i have read – It may not necessarily change my thinking but it may add to what I already believe.

This is rather long, but I too felt that the subject needed extensive treatment. I hope this does not come across as offense, it is not intended, just a passionate dissent.

It is difficult to argue against “Scriptural support” when it is pulled out of its context. It appears as though much of your support are one verse or two that is plopped down without explanation. That is, in most of these you have placed your thoughts on a phrase in parenthesis. When not in context and without the aid of the original Greek or Hebrew, most of these definitely support your view that one can “lose salvation.”

For instance, if I pull Colossians 1.23 out of its context, you could use it for your argument here, and I am surprised actually that it did not show up. That verse would say out of context, “if you continue in your faith, established and firm…” The parenthesis might say, (sounds like there is a possibility that some won't continue in their faith).

If we put that verse into context (Col. 1.15-28), however, and allow the original language to speak to the original audience before bringing it to 2009 we have a completely different interpretation. The context is the Apostle Paul arguing for the supremacy of Christ in all things, even salvation (and “through him” to reconcile “to Himself”… but now “He” has reconciled you [not the other way around]).

The original Greek also reveals a great deal in that the “if” seen in verse 23 is in the indicative tense, meaning, what Paul is really saying is, “there is actually no way you could not continue in your faith and remain established and firm, and I'm only saying 'if', but really there is no way you could not.”

Context and language.

In Mark 13 Jesus is addressing specific people, His disciples, who have asked very specific questions. He addresses his disciples very specifically saying, “You must be on your guard. You will be handed over to the local councils and flogged in the synagogues. On account of me you will stand before governors and kings as witnesses to them. 10And the gospel must first be preached to all nations. 11Whenever you are arrested and brought to trial, do not worry beforehand about what to say. Just say whatever is given you at the time, for it is not you speaking, but the Holy Spirit.

12″Brother will betray brother to death, and a father his child. Children will rebel against their parents and have them put to death. 13All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.”

According to early church history, the disciples fulfilled these things, save Judas who was actually out of the circle before the crucifixion and resurrection, events that had to take place before the things Jesus spoke of. They all stood until their end. Sounds like this goes against your parenthetical thought.

Context.

Furthermore, you put words in Jesus' mouth that suggest people will not stand firm to the end when He never speaks those words. You infer when He did not necessarily imply.

The context of 1 Corinthians 9.27 is Paul arguing his apostleship, not his salvation (v 3. 'this is my defense to those who sit in judgment of me.') The entire chapter of 1 Corinthians 9 is arguing Paul's gift or calling of apostleship that has been placed on him. Furthermore, the word disqualified is translated from the word adokimos. Every other time Paul uses this word it is in reference to his test as an apostle. One author writes, “The fact that no instance of the use of adokimos or a cognate referring to Paul relates to the test of faith or salvation, rather, that every instance has to do with his fitness as an apostle raises doubts about the view that adokimos in 1 Cor. 9:27 means rejected from salvation and suggests instead that it means rejected as an apostle (Gundry-Volf, 236-7).

Context and language.

Your “interpretation” of Matthew 24 is fundamentally flawed because you treat is as a real life example thus doing violence to the text. This is a parable. Not every element of a parable is directly translatable and this is one of the first principle rules in proper exegesis. You suggest that the man is a servant of the Master using a capital “M” when the text does not do so and you also suggest that the man is a 'follower of Jesus,' once again, adding meaning to the text which is not to be found. He is speaking of an earthly master and proper exegsis will not allow us to say Jesus is referring to His servant.

In Psalm 51 you have a man, David, who is asking God to not take His spirit from him. This is a man's request because he knows the pain of people leaving Him. The first problem with using this text is that God never said He would leave, David's request does not indicate an action that would ever be done on God's part. That is, David supposes God would leave, God never says that. The second problem with using this text to support your position is that this is an Old Covenant text. The Spirit has not yet been sent as a seal.

In the New Covenant, the Spirit has been sent as a seal and this is what Paul says about that in 2 Corinthians 1, “18But as surely as God is faithful, our message to you is not “Yes” and “No.” 19For the Son of God, Jesus Christ, who was preached among you by me and Silas[b] and Timothy, was not “Yes” and “No,” but in him it has always been “Yes.” 20For no matter how many promises God has made, they are “Yes” in Christ. And so through him the “Amen” is spoken by us to the glory of God. 21Now it is God who makes both us and you stand firm in Christ. He anointed us, 22set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.

We don't make ourselves saved. God makes us stand firm in Christ. He set His seal of ownership on us. In doing this he guarantees what is to come, namely, abundant life which begins now, not at some future point.

I am actually appalled by the last argument. The first error is that you suppose you can link all these scriptures and apply them to this one person. You suggest that Judas' name was in the book of life. What passage of Scripture says Judas' name was written in the book of life? (Ex 32 is written to a specific group of people and if it is written to all people at all times, then we are all screwed because we have all sinned against Him). How do you know that Judas' name was blotted out? None of us has seen that book and the Scripture never says, “Judas' name was blotted out.”

You suggest that Judas healed the sick and delivered people and used Matt. 10 as your support. Again, context shows that the 12 are not involved in this passage. Matthew 10.1 says, “[Jesus] appointed 72 others…” indicating that Jesus appointed others, not the 12.

It seems very audacious to suggest that any one of us could claim whose name was written in the book of life and whose name has been blotted out.

I feel that my response has been too long, but no argument is complete without addressing both sides. And since I have already addressed much of the arguments for the “fall away” side, a few brief verses for the perseverance of the saints will do. Which I would argue, based on Paul and Peter's writings is actually the view held by the early church.

Peter writes, “1 Peter 1:5 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to his great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to obtain an inheritance which is imperishable and undefiled and will not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.”

He caused us to be born again. We therefore have an inheritance which is imperishable and undefiled and will not fade away. John Piper writes, “There are no commandments in the first 12 verses of this letter. No demands or requirements or directions. What Peter is doing here is not telling us what to do but telling us what to enjoy. He is not exhorting, he is exulting.”

In reference to salvation in Romans 8 and a life in the spirit, Paul writes, “29For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

Those he predestined to be conformed he called, he justified, and he glorified. All of these words are in the past tense. They have already been accomplished. We live in the confines of time and space and therefore cannot understand completely this passage and we can clearly see that we are not presently glorified, but He who does not live in space and time has already glorified us. Will He then unglorify us?

Paul goes on to say about our relationship with Christ Jesus, “38For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.”

What I would argue is that the “nor anything else in all creation” would even refer to our “supposed” ability to be able to reject Christ.

The argument begs the question, “What exactly are we saved to?” I would say abundant life in Christ which includes eternal life. As you argue for John 3.16, “…shall not perish but have eternal life.”

Eternity has no end or beginning. If we are saved to eternal life, then it cannot come to an end.

“He who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.” Philippians 1. I do not negate the fact that we are called to do a good work. In fact our life in Him should cause good works to naturally pour out from us. But the work of salvation, justification, sanctification and glorification are on Him (Romans 8). He began the good work and He will carry it on to completion.

oh my. i have felt no need to make my opinion known regarding this subject… but if a theology degree from oxford means someone “must very well know” and is immune to “pulling things out of context” ….. well. then why doesn't Jesus just came back right now? If all that can be known about Him is made known through a theology degree from Oxford & that piece of paper showing hours of education at that particular school studying theology means that you will never speak another untrue word about Jesus or that your opinions about Him are absolutely correct without fail…. then why are more people not studying theology at Oxford instead of wasting time arguing on this blog?

I do not mean to be sassy or offensive. I simply say all that to say… regardless of where one has studied we are all prone to error. There are a lot of highly educated people who believe absolutely ridiculous things. So, don't be so quick to believe or trust everything someone speaks or writes just because they are educated. (Not pointing this in Vicky's direction.. just in general.)

Im afraid if you continue on that pattern you will find yourself misled & lazy (much like many before you & alongside you in the church). Study, discern, press in & KNOW Jesus for yourself. :)

Sarah – what could possibly be MORE important than ensuring we are accurately interpreting the Scriptures?

This very type of discussion was constantly taking place in and around synagogues and the temple during the time of Christ. In fact, Jesus Himself regularly engaged in conversations exactly like this!

Why? Because He wanted to ensure that He laid out true theology with clarity. I would imagine that nothing would dismay our Savior more than to see us have a flippant attitude about interpreting the Scriptures!

Also – just because discussion is passionate, doesn't mean it's negative. If there was ever a subject that we SHOULD be passionate about – wouldn't our theology be it?

The key is every poster being genuinely interested in TRUTH and not just winning the argument…

Vicky, I think what you're saying makes sense. I didn't post on the original thread because I don't know anything about anything, but the parable of the sower kept popping into my mind. I also think it makes sense that God wouldn't override free will, even if it meant his own heart breaking. Thinking of that makes me love him even more.

I'm glad you shared what you think with us, and I hope you will continue to do so.

Absolutely.. God can certainly speak to us through anyone for His glory. But, I am wondering how does this kind of discussion bring Him glory??

Let me first state to everyone that I apologize for how my post came across. I really meant it all with respect. Unfortunately, after reading it, I believe it came across with less love than what I had intended. Indeed I appreciate Jeff T's post which comes across with a stronger hold of grace than mine.

In response to Jonathan Paul: I felt that I did give specific information by pointing out what Paul is saying when he says “if.” Though, clearly I did not do a very good job explaining what that “if” means. The English just doesn't capture what the original language was saying. You suggest that “If Paul's intent was to communicate that God reconciles us regardless of any choice or action on our part, he could simply omitted that last conditional phrase.” What I'm saying is that the response is not conditional at all.

In the Greek the if is not a conditional clause, rather, “In the Greek, the “if” indicates an assumption of truth. Paul assumes that the Colossians will continue in the faith. This is not an “if” of the future; it is an “if” of the past. The word can be translated “since.” “Since indeed you continue in the faith.” Our reconciliation is an accomplished fact. Continuance is a test of reality. There is no uncertainty of the believer’s reconciliation. The believer will be uncharged and without blemish when he stands before God (v. 22). Salvation was an accomplished event at the moment of faith.” Dr. Grant Richison

thanx for pointing out your views.
I think its important that we not try to pull out of scripture what we want it to say, we should let God just tell us what he means in all this. if you ask me I dont think God is very vague.

Thanks for your heart on this, B. I think we've all been guilty of that sort of thing and much worse before. :o) I take your apology as a sign of maturity. Thanks also for the response about the Greek. I still don't agree on the interpretation of that verse, but I do better understand your point, and I appreciate you taking the time to help with that!

First of all, to the community at large, this is a huge post, so if you don't wish to read the whole thing, please don't feel obligated to do so. I'll try to be more concise in the future. The last paragraph is the only part that I would urge each of you to take time to read.

Vicky, thanks for your willingness to share your position with us. You could have easily tossed out these questions without getting involved, but you took the time to write out a lengthy response and joined the discussion, which I appreciate. Personally, I hope that we can continue these discussions and that you'll feel comfortable with sharing your views on other issues that merit discussion in the future, but as I'll expand upon later, that will largely be dependent on the cooperation of the group as a whole.

Regarding your position, I agree with your position on free will. That's one of the reasons I love Lewis's writings so much–he explains this (and many other concepts) so much better than I can. I believe that God extends the opportunity for repentance to all, and that we cannot be saved until He first extends this offer (John 6:44). That said, I also believe that we can choose to accept or to reject this offer. For instance, when Christ laid out the cost of following Him to the rich young man, the rich young man rejected Christ and went away sad (Matthew 19:16-22). The paradoxical part of this is that the only way we can choose to accept Christ is through Christ's provision, but just because He enables us to say yes does not mean he forces us to say yes. It's a subtle distinction that can be hard to understand, but that's why He's God. He's clearly bigger than we can ever fully understand during this lifetime.

The place where our views differ is regarding the notion of falling away. I believe that the Bible teaches of salvation as a process. After all, Jesus refers to the process of salvation as being “born again” when he talks to Nicodemus (John 3:3-7). We tend to look at salvation as a one-time event, as we tend to refer to the point where we first accept Christ as when we were saved. Thus, we tend to look at salvation as simply our spiritual birth, not as the process of growing up spiritually that follows. In fact, there are several times in the New Testament where the word “saved” is used in a tense that implies a continuous process, not a past event. (Examples include 1 Corinthians 1:18, Romans 8:24, 2 Timothy 1:9) That being said, I believe that once the process of salvation truly begins, it continues on for the rest of our lifetime. Perhaps the strongest argument to this point is made by Paul in 1 Corinthians 3:10-15. In verse 15, Paul mentions a person whose works are built upon the foundation of Christ (provided by the context of the prior verses), but the quality of his work was poor, so it was consumed by fire. Nonetheless, the person in the example is saved from destruction. Let me say definitively that I do not believe that just because salvation endures means that believers have permission to go on sinning as they please. In fact, I think that the types of believers that Paul speaks of are those who never allow God to use them to the fullest (may that never be said of us), and does not refer to people who turn their backs on the faith entirely. These are the people that I believe Hebrews 6 is referencing (though I admit this passage is challenging, and I do not claim to have an authoritative grip on it by any means), and I believe these are the people mentioned in 1 John 2:18-19. To sum all of this up in a concise manner, I believe that those who are truly saved are the ones who endure to the end, because their initial point of salvation (spiritual birth) is manifested through their lives as a continuing process. This is what James talks about: if you're truly saved, then the fruit your life produces will bear this out. Those who do not endure did not count the cost and looked for salvation as a one-time event, not a continuing process. Thus, these people eventually fall away, because they never experienced true biblical salvation–a process that continues throughout the rest of our lives.

Wow…that was really verbose. If there's something I did not explain well, let me know and I'll try to clarify it. Also, let me add that I do not by any means claim to have the definitive, 100% correct view on this subject, and though I can't speak for Vicky, I truly get the impression from her comments that she would say the same about herself. God in His infinite will has ordained that there are some things about Him that He allows us to understand through His word, and there are some things that we will never truly be able to understand on this side of heaven. But that's how it should be. After all, He's God and we're not…how could we ever hope to fully understand God when He is so much bigger and so much grander and so much more incredible than anything we will ever see or hear?

So remember, when all of us discuss these issues where there's no clear Biblical mandate one way or the other, our sole aim should not be to try to prove we're right or we're wrong. Instead, we should share our interpretations through what we've seen in the Word. It's then up to each person to do as the Bereans did in Acts 17:10-11 and examine the Scriptures for themselves to see if the things we say are true. If the Word supports it, wonderful–it means we've been able to learn from this. If it does not, this is still a good thing–it means we've been able to use the Scriptures to identify a wrong teaching, so we still grow through the process. If we can stick to this process during these discussions and avoid getting into personal attacks or mindsets where we're completely unwilling to see any position except our own (unless the Bible gives an unmistakable position), then these discussions can be extremely beneficial to all of us. If we can't, I fear we'll have to steer clear of them in the future.

I'm wondering if it's at all valid to use OT scripture to even speak on the issue, since the “seal” which holds us fast is the Holy Spirit, and until Acts He had not yet been given, so it seems that none of those OT passages would apply to the issue whatsoever. Even then, to believe that the doctrine Perseverence (again, I don't believe in “Once Saved, Always Saved”, either) does not deny the active WILLing of the believer to continually follow God and be faithful… only that God is even sovereign, ultimately, over that.

i saw a week ago you were opening up this can of worms. it made me smile. ;)

haven't read through all this, but have one thought on the topic:

regarding salvation in the OT, if Israel was chosen by God, but could fall away from faith by their unbelief (both individually and as a nation) than why do we as NT believers think that we are 'impervious' to the loss of our salvation?

God's ways haven't changed and I interpret Paul's thoughts in Romans 11:20-25 as a warning to believers in Jesus to be careful not to assume that God's kindness is somehow license to an arrogant belief that they cannot fall away and be judged by God.

The only point on which I will take issue is your 3rd bullet point as I think the Hebrews 6 passage goes to great length (enlightened, tasted the heavenly gift, shared in the Holy Spirit, tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age) to describe one that is “saved” and yet lost their salvation.

Another thought I have had came out of a discussion on evolution. There are two types of evolution, macro evolution and micro evolution. Macro is the big one, monkey to man type of deal. Micro evolution is more adaptation, like people getting taller over time to adapt to environmental change.

If you ask: does evolution exist? The answer is yes. Micro evolution exists and is proven, but macro evolution is unproven. Now the point isn't evolution but macro and micro.

Looking at OT promise there was both micro promise (God's promise to Abraham or Moses) and macro promise (God's promise to the nation of Israel). That's why God could keep the nation of Israel out of the promise land until all of the disobedient generation was dead and yet still remain true to his word. His promise wasn't to the individuals, but to the nation.

When looking at words spoken in the NT is it possible that words spoken about the perseverance of the saints, predestination and the like are spoken not about us as individuals, but about “Christians” as a whole? Macro application as opposed to micro application.

Hmm.. Jonathan.. that is a very good question.. My first thought that came to mind is.. the local church. When we believers start debating theology back and forth without mediation.. it can get ugly really quick. The safety and covering of a local church pastor would solve that.. imho. :)

What did you think a good environment would be??

I like you're response, Sarah. Thanks! And since you asked for my humble opinion as well, I'll give it to you! :o) It plays a bit of the “devil's advocate” to your line of thought…

I don't think the discussion has gotten too outta hand on the blog here yet. If that were to happen, I'm sure Vicky would be capable of reeling us all back in. :o) So far though it seems like we've all been doing our best to be constructive and respectful of others.

I think it's great when we're able to advantage of new tools and technology. This past weekend, our pastor took questions at the end of the service – by text message. It worked out really well; people were able to submit questions in an orderly way (including those at several remote locations watching via satelite). A few of the best questions were then able to be addressed to the benefit of everyone.

I think having these theological discussions online allows more of us from a greater diversity of backgrounds and locations to participate than would otherwise be possible. On the other hand, I think it'd be more fun if we were all in the same room with mugs of our favorite hot beverages in our hands, a good roaring fire going in the fireplace and some good music on in the background… I guess we can't have everything though! :o)

I have a question, and it relates to the subject of condemnation, the cross, and limited atonement.

What is it that sends a person to hell?

Isn’t it unforgiven sin?

Eph 2:1 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins 2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— 3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body [1] and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.

So we were at one time “children of wrath” because of “the trespasses and sins in which we once walked.”

Here is my question. If we say that Christ shed his blood on the cross for everyone, then how can we believe that anybody is going to hell?

Here is where I am going with this. Christ died nearly 2000 years ago. Therefore, not one person who is having this conversation was even alive at the time the blood of Christ was shed. Because of that fact, whatever the blood of Christ accomplished happened before we were born. Christ’s work was independent of any action we had done because we had done nothing.

There is then the question, what does scripture say Christ’s shed blood accomplished?

Col 2:13-14 say this, “13 And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses, 14 by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross.”

This passage says that God has “forgiven us all our trespasses” by nailing our record of debt to the cross. This would seem to clearly say that our every sin was forgiven at the cross. Again, this occurred 2000 years ago.

The question then becomes, if we believe Christ died for the sins of every single person, how is anyone not saved? If we believe Christ died for everyone, then wouldn’t we also have to believe that his blood forgave all of their sins? How then can we say that some are going to hell?

What then would a person who believes Christ shed his blood for every single person say about why a person who has been forgiven of all their sins can still go to hell?

This also relates to perseverance. If one can completely reject faith after they have been a true member of Christ’s kingdom, then what are they really rejecting? Christ already died for their sins. What is left to condemn them? Is God condemning them for something other than sin?!

Romans 8:1-3 “8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death. 3 For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh,”

This passage says there is no condemnation because of the work Christ did at the cross 2000 years ago. If Christ died for everyone, then there is no condemnation for anyone. How then can we say, if we believe Christ died for every single person, that those who were once saved but now reject the faith are condemned?

Grace and peace
Brian

“This is how much God loved the world: He gave his Son, his one and only Son. And this is why: so that no one need be destroyed; by believing in him, anyone can have a whole and lasting life. God didn't go to all the trouble of sending his Son merely to point an accusing finger, telling the world how bad it was. He came to help, to put the world right again. Anyone who trusts in him is acquitted; anyone who refuses to trust him has long since been under the death sentence without knowing it. And why? Because of that person's failure to believe in the one-of-a-kind Son of God when introduced to him.
(John 3:16 – The Message)

Vicky,

I know that Hebrews 10:26 can be confusing to interpret the text The Amplified bible translation does a good job clarify the meaning of scripture.

Hebrews 10:26
For if we go on deliberately and willingly sinning after once acquiring the knowledge of the Truth, there is no longer any sacrifice left to atone for [our] sins [no further offering to which to look forward].

John Wesley commentary says regarding Hebrews 10:26 For when we – Any of us Christians. Sin wilfully – By total apostasy from God, termed “drawing back,” ver. 38. After having received the experimental knowledge of the gospel truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins – None but that which we obstinately reject.

Nathan

Hmmmm – I am usually an anonymous reader of this blog, but I think I will chip in for a change.

There as part of me that is deeply uncomfortable with some of these discussions – not because I object to theological debate or searching the scriptures, but because I think there are assumptions made about people who “walk away” – which presumably means, are no longer Christians, no longer attend churches or no longer engage with Christian faith and spirituality.

I think there is often an assumption that people wander away into sin. Indeed, my own experience of wandering has not been into sin. I live according to my conscience, which some would view as God's voice within me. Outside of church, I find it easier to love myself and others, practice compassion and generosity and find forgiveness towards myself and others. Indeed, one might almost say, I live more in line with the teachings of Christ outside of church than within it!

I do not always know what I believe – it is seldom in line with evangelical Christian theology. Those who have left churches, may not be willfully rejecting God or sinning- perhaps they are being honest with their intellect, their doubts and questions, perhaps they cannot abide by a lack of grace and acceptance towards themselves or people that they care for.

I hope that in these discussions, no-one will loose sight of the humanity of those who walk or even run away.

In peace.

Cheekychops, obviously I don’t know or your situation, but I think a couple of important things from scripture need to be made clear.

1 John 2:3-6 says, “3 And by this we know that we have come to know him, if we keep his commandments. 4 Whoever says “I know him” but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him, 5 but whoever keeps his word, in him truly the love of God is perfected. By this we may know that we are in him: 6 whoever says he abides in him ought to walk in the same way in which he walked.”

Now obviously that means caring about the broken and hurting, but it also means more than this. Hear the words of Jesus. Matthew 22: 34-40.

“34 But when the Pharisees heard that he had silenced the Sadducees, they gathered together. 35 And one of them, a lawyer, asked him a question to test him. 36 “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?” 37 And he said to him, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. 38 This is the great and first commandment. 39 And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. 40 On these two commandments depend all the Law and the Prophets.”

The great and first commandment is to love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. That means a life that is lived with a focus on God. How can we say we love God completely, but then we do not give him any of our time, energy, or thoughts? If we saw a husband who said he loved his wife completely, but then he never spent time with her, never tried to get to know her more, never did anything that she asked of him, never did anything she liked, and never spent time around other people who cared about her, we would say he did not really love her. Right?

How then can we do the same thing to God? We can say we love him completely, but what then if our actions do not show that? What if we never pray to him, never think of him, never read his Word, never do the things he commands, never do the things that please him, never spend time with other believers in worship, how then can we say we truly love God?

In saying all that I would urge you to live a Christ like life. This does not mean there will never be harder times or times of discouragement, but it does mean that we should walk in the way in which Christ walked.

Also, you said, “I hope that in these discussions, no-one will loose sight of the humanity of those who walk or even run away.”

True. Everyone is made in the image of God, even unbelievers. That gives them a worth that we should all constantly remember. However, we should also remember that those who do not believe are in open rebellion against God. They need to repent of there sinfulness and put their trust in Jesus because he is mighty to save. We should encourage them in this all the more because they are made in God’s image.

Grace and peace
Brian

Scripture speaks very plainly that unbelief is rebellion. Heb 3:12-19

“12 Take care, brothers, lest there be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, leading you to fall away from the living God. 13 But exhort one another every day, as long as it is called “today,” that none of you may be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original confidence firm to the end. 15 As it is said,

“Today, if you hear his voice,
do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion.”

16 For who were those who heard and yet rebelled? Was it not all those who left Egypt led by Moses? 17 And with whom was he provoked for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies fell in the wilderness? 18 And to whom did he swear that they would not enter his rest, but to those who were disobedient? 19 So we see that they were unable to enter because of unbelief.

Any time God commands us and we willfully reject that command, we are in open rebellion.

God has commanded us in his Word. Mark 1:14-15

14 Now after John was arrested, Jesus came into Galilee, proclaiming the gospel of God, 15 and saying, “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel.”

Jesus calls us to repent and believe in him; therefore, unbelief is rebellion against him and what he has commanded.

Grace and peace
Brian

The Bible has a lot to say about the security of the believer, but the point of those passages seem more about encouraging those who are faithful not to fear Satan's ability to cause them to fail in their pursuit of God.

These passages do not say that one who has willfully chosen to turn their back on God, rejecting the salvation they once held dear, should not live in fear of judgment and loss of their salvation. In fact, there are numerous passages (some of which Vicky pointed out above) that indicate the opposite.

Stated differently, I see no text in the Bible that says or implies either 1) it is impossible to change your mind about following God or 2) those who once followed God can then do anything whatsoever with no fear of Hell. These doctrines are not only non-Biblical, but unhealthy and have (IMO) severely weakened the Church overall.

Bonhoeffer, a brilliant theologian, had a lot to say on this topic in his words on “cheap grace.”

I don't think that makes a lot of sense. I can no more make myself believe in Christianity than I can convince myself that the world was created by a flying spaghetti monster.

Oh, I'm not saying they are 21st century words. They were said by Christ without a doubt. What I'm saying is they were not “the” descriptor used by Christ or any Biblical writer. We have latched on to them but Christ used those words with one person. Hardly grounds to then apply them to all other Biblical passages as a standard for salvation description. In fact, being born again wasn't part of standard Christian jargon until 1960's America. It is currently used far, far more than it ever was when scripture was being written. Does that make sense?

Brian,

I didn't come for a debate – I've had too many! All I wanted to do was to remind people of the humanity of those that walk away.

I don't believe what you've said – but there are about a hundred thousand debates to have there – the existence of a supreme being, the authority of the Bible, epistemology, the nature of truth…

I don't believe. I don't choose not to believe, but my most honest position both in terms of my own experience and a more academic process of seeking and evaluating evidence from as open-minded a position as possible leads me to a different conclusion than you
have come to.

For me, to “repent and believe” would be dishonest. I'm not saying, anyone else lacks integrity – if you own search is honest and open, and you come to that conclusion, then that's great.

As to my good friend, the flying spaghetti monster, I suggest you google him. May you be touched by his noodley appendages.

Peace,

C

Vicky,

Will be sharing my thoughts soon on church history such a huge topic please pray that God would help me to be see it as breath of fresh air read and meditate upon the sciptures.

After looking further into author was saying in Hebrews 10:26 John Macarthur says This warning passage deals with the sin of apostasy, an intentional falling away, or defection. Apostates are those who move toward Christ, hear and understand His gospel, and are on the verge of saving belief, but then rebel and turn away. This warning against apostasy is one of the most serious warnings in all of Scripture. Not all of the Hebrews would respond to the gentle invitation of vv. 19–25. Some were already beyond response.

10:26 we. The author is speaking rhetorically. In v. 39, he excludes himself and genuine believers from this category. sin willfully. The Gr. term carries the idea of deliberate intention that is habitual. The sin is rejecting Christ deliberately. These are not isolated acts. According to the Mosaic legislation, such acts of deliberate, premeditated sin required exclusion from the congregation of Israel (cf. Num. 15:30,31) and from its worship (cf. Ex. 21:14). Such sins also excluded the individual from sanctuary in the cities of refuge (cf. Deut. 19:11–13). knowledge. The Gr. term denotes specific knowledge, not general spiritual knowledge (cf. 6:4; cf. 1 Tim. 2:4). Though the knowledge was not defective or incomplete, the application of the knowledge was certainly flawed. Judas Iscariot is a good example of a disciple who had no lack of knowledge, but lacked faith and became the arch-apostate. no longer. See note on 6:6. The apostate is beyond salvation because he has rejected the only sacrifice that can cleanse him from sin and bring him into God’s presence. To turn away from that sacrifice leaves him with no saving alternative. This is parallel to Matt. 12:31 (see note there).

Your brother in Christ,

Nathan

Vicky,

food for thought considering Galatians, 5:4 and 2 peter 2:22.

Galaians5:4

Wesley commentary

Therefore Christ is become of no effect to you – Who seek to be justified by the law. Ye are fallen from grace – Ye renounce the new covenant. Ye disclaim the benefit of this gracious dispensation.

Calvin commentary

5:4 Christ is b become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are c justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

(b) That is, as he himself expounds it afterward, “ye are fallen from grace.”
(c) That is, seek to be justified by the Law, for indeed no man is justified by the Law.

John Macarthur

5:4 justified. See notes on 2:16; Rom. 3:24. estranged from Christ … fallen from grace. The Gr. word for “estranged” means “to be separated,” or “to be severed.” The word for “fallen” means “to lose one’s grasp on something.” Paul’s clear meaning is that any attempt to be justified by the law is to reject salvation by grace alone through faith alone. Those once exposed to the gracious truth of the gospel, who then turn their backs on Christ (Heb. 6:4–6) and seek to be justified by the law are separated from Christ and lose all prospects of God’s gracious salvation. Their desertion of Christ and the gospel only proves that their faith was never genuine (cf. Luke 8:13, 14; 1 John 2:19).

2 Peter 2:22 Amplified Bible Translation

There has befallen them the thing spoken of in the true proverb, The dog turns back to his own vomit, and, The sow is washed only to wallow again in the mire.

John Macarthur has this to say about 2 Peter 2:22 2:22 dog … sow. Two graphic analogies of an apostate. The first from Proverbs 26:11; the second is Peter’s own.

In Christ,

Nathan

Hi Vicky, you can read all of this, some of it, or none of it!

Nice to see you tackle this subject. I think you did a very good job. The only thing I want to do is caution you on your statement “I do not believe in predestination”.

Predestination is a biblical fact:

Rom 8:29
29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. (NKJ)

Rom 8:30
30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified. (NKJ)

Eph 1:5
5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, (NKJ)

Eph 1:11
11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, (NKJ)

To say you don't believe in predestination makes you a cousin of a person who doesn't believe Jesus is the only way to God or who doesn't believe Jesus performed miracles. If you truly believe the Bible you can't say those things. The Bible plainly teaches Jesus is the only way to God, that Jesus performed miracles, and that God predestines. When you say “I don't believe” in one of these things, you are putting your intellect and reasoning ahead of the Bible. That is very dangerous. In your case it is not a salvation issue, but you're treading on the same ground.

You may not like the doctrine of predestination, but it is solidly in the Bible. If you truly believe the Bible, you have to believe in it. Otherwise, I would have to question the depth of your belief in the Bible. I would also have to ask, what else in the Bible don't you believe?

Examining Loss (Part 1)
Dead Faith
Question: Why do people leave the church, or in other words abandon the faith, or abandon a sound belief in the orthodox principles of the faith? We are not talking about why a family may leave our church and go to another down the road, but why do some seem to stray from the faith? It is very distressing and perplexing.

The apostle John assesses this issue in 1 John 2:19:
They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us.
John's answer is that they left, but this is simply because they never truly belonged – in other words, truly believed. We need to develop this idea, as it is critical that we know that we have a genuine faith.

In fact, the apostle Paul exhorts believers in 2 Cor 13:5
Examine yourselves, to see whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Or do you not realize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?–unless indeed you fail to meet the test! 2 Cor 13:5

The key question which has the ultimate answer is, Is Christ in you? Or in other words have you been born of the Holy Spirit? I'm getting to the conclusion before we get going, so you know where we are going, so that when we get there, you'll know where you are. Got it? Where we are going is this, the Bible clearly teaches that you must be born again, and thus have the Holy Spirit to have saving faith. Now, indeed this is the key idea. With out the Holy Spirit, we are going to see, that a dynamic, genuine, saving faith is impossible!

We are going to examine James Chapter 2 and find that there are three kinds of faith, and only one of them is saving faith.

The first is what we will call a dead faith. Reading from James 2:14-17:
What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him?
If a brother or sister is poorly clothed and lacking in daily food,
and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and filled,” without giving them the things needed for the body, what good is that?
So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

This “dead” faith is of the intellect only. There is the acceptance of God, and a “head” knowledge, or “mental accent” of Jesus' death, burial, and resurrection. However, there is a lacking of a response of good works. Now, let's get one thing straight at the top here – James is not advocating the idea that works are required for salvation and thus contradicting Paul's writing to the the Ephesians 2:8,9 where he says: For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. No, no no. What James is saying is that good works are a product or genuine, saving faith. In fact, this is in complete agreement with Paul is Ephesians 2:10 -
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them. God's saving work in us will produce good works.

Let's get back to James. James is saying here that you cannot claim to have faith in God and the redeeming work of Jesus Christ if its not demonstrated by works of love and compassion. If your life is not demonstrating the love that Jesus Christ has for you, then how can the love of Jesus Christ be in you? It is His love for you, the love He expressed on the cross, that is the supreme motivator.

Let's look at this further. The apostle John is in complete agreement. Looking at his first letter, we find that John proclaims that true faith will manifest in acts of love and compassion.

We know that we have passed out of death into life, because we love the brothers. Whoever does not love abides in death. 1 John 3:14
This verse clearly teaches that love for fellow believers is an indication “passing from death to life”, and thus of true faith. Paul uses the “passing from death to life” description of salvation when he says in Eph 2:1 “And you were dead in the trespasses and sins.” If you have passed from death to life, then you must love your brothers and sisters in Christ. So true saving faith is marked by love for believers.

John also says in 1 John 3:17 “But if anyone has the world's goods and sees his brother in need, yet closes his heart against him, how does God's love abide in him?” This is a test, and again, this echo's what James said, in that if we have the capability to meet someones need, yet do nothing, we need to question whether the love of God is alive and active in our lives, and whether we have a genuine and living faith. Now, the we know that the only way we have the love of God operational in us is because, as it says in Romans 5:5 “God's love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit who has been given to us.”

John goes to further state the importance of expressing love and compassion to others when he says in 1 John 4:20: “If anyone says, “I love God,” and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen cannot love God whom he has not seen.” John makes it very clear, that there are these tests that indicate through our attitude and actions as to whether you have saving faith, and thus whether the Holy Spirit is present and active in you, bringing forth these works of love. Otherwise, you may have what theologians call simply a mental accent, which is a “dead faith.” And it is dead because it does not exhibit works of love, and works of life.

Now, I need to quickly say that some of you may having saving faith, and the Holy Spirit, however, you are currently or temporarily lacking the evidence of good works. I say this in love, that you need to examine if there are other passions, pursuits, or pleasures have captivated you. In this case, you may indeed have the Holy Spirit, but does He have all of you? If this is the case, you need to allow Him to remove the things, sins, be it attitudes, habits, whatever, that He will again be the dominating influence and bear the fruit of good works.

In the future we will continue this topic and look at the two other kinds of faith portrayed in James chapter 2, but for now, a Question: Does you life demonstrate the love of Jesus Christ to others? If not, you need to examine yourself and determine if you are truly in the faith.

Remember, the faith that can save you is the faith that will change you!

(Part's 2&3 will follow, which discuss Demonic Faith & Dynamic Faith)

SO it looks like I'm going to hell from what you guys are saying…but I guess we won't know where we're going till we're dead…maybe I will be in heaven after all! If I am then I guess the once saved always saved statement is true :)

John,
I do know that I could have eternal life, I also believe in God. But I don't live a Christian lifestyle…I have done in the past I just don't feel able to do it at the moment. I also know that God knows everything that has happened to me in my life and I don't believe he has given up on me and bolted me out of his books…It seems others on here would disagree as I was truely saved once.
This though is why I feel this is an unanswerable question and that at the end of the day we won't know where we will all end up until we are dead!

Wow. I have to say I dont know if I completely agree with the theological stand but have to say that I am VERY impressed at your thoroughness! All I am going to say is this…if we are truly Christians, our faith is suppose to be a LIFESTYLE not a duty or a choice. We are saved by the GRACE of God. We are called to surrender our lives, hearts, and minds every day as many times as it takes. God extends His grace and mercy to us freely and without reserve. We ARE going to stumble and fail. As much as I will encourage this “debate” we need to remember that truth is truth, and speculation and debate is what it is. Are we focusing on being more on the tools and material or the builder? There are some things I believe we are not fully meant to understand. There is a VERY fine line between predestination and free will. Honestly I believe both are right and wrong to an extent. But should that even matter if we are fulfilling the Great Commission? What will it really solve to determine who is right and who is wrong? Jesus said to go into ALL the world and preach the Gospel and let HIM work in the hearts and minds of those who hear it. Hope that helps a little.
- Dave
http://www.brokensoulforchrist.wordpress.com

Dear Anon,

Again, I believe God's Word tells us that He wants us to know our destiny –that we can have certainty and confidence. Continuing to look at what the Apostle John wrote:

Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God. So we have come to know and to believe the love that God has for us. God is love, and whoever abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him. By this is love perfected with us, so that we may have confidence for the day of judgment, because as he is so also are we in this world. There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear. For fear has to do with punishment, and whoever fears has not been perfected in love 1 John 4:15-18

You also see in these verses the power of God's love, the liberating power that alleviates the fear of eternal judgment. Children of God, do not have to fear His judgment, although by His love, He will discipline them (see Heb 12:5-11). It is also written, ” God has not given us the spirit of fear, but of power and of love and of a sound mind (2 Tim 1:7).”

On the other hand, I also believe that the enemy of our souls wants to keep us captive to fear. Satan does not want us to rest in the complete and perfect work of Jesus Christ, which Heb 10:14 says “by a single offering He has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified.” With such glorious promises such as this one, and many other in the Word that give us confidence before God, ought not we serve Him, motivated and empowered by such wondrous & saving love? If you have received Jesus Christ as Savior, and you believe He is Lord, then He alone is faithful and capable to finish the work He stated in you. What reason to rejoice, praise, and serve Him with gratitude! Let this marvelous grace overwhelm and overflow!

I am praying that you will realize the full joy and confidence in your salvation through the working of His Holy Spirit! (ref Ps 51:12)
Amen.

Great explanation (since I agree with you) the best explanation is simple, wasnt Jesus so simple in explaining the things of Heaven to His children?
If we are alive in Christ then our “works” will show, our tree will produce works/fruit worthy of the Lamb. Jesus himself “cursed” the fig tree that did not produce figs, it withered and died. How can the Son of Man, (who did not come to condemn the world) curse a tree and basically kill it and deprive it from producing more fruit?
We are made in His image and like the fig tree (that was made to produce figs) if our fruit/works do not produce the “fruits of the Spirit” then we will be cursed and cast away.

I think in the end you can prove or disprove any and all doctrine by doctrine. So we have an element of faith to fall back on. Jesus said it is finished ! all that is needed to be done was done through him. It also says that in him we are complete ( having all its part or elements). He entered into the Holy Of Holy's once, he sacrificed himself once, We Are One In Him, (this in itself is a powerful teaching, that is not understood) we are a new creature, we are adopted, we are created after his image. the new creature who is imaged after Christ is recognized as one in Christ ,as he is holy I am holy, as he is without sin i am without sin, “in the flesh no” but in the spirit yes. You cannot teach a physical relationship and base your doctrine on temperal salvation, we have entered into a higher understanding in the spiritual realm. No flesh will enter into heaven and no flesh shall be justified in his sight, we are corrupt after the fashion of Adam, but yet we are pure without spot after the redemption of Christ who took away the penalty of the law which was death and gave us life through and by himself. When you read the New Testament alot of what you are hearing is bringing the jews from a life based on law and self effort to a life based on grace. (an alien concept to them and other religions). So to us who live by Grace are confused because we did not grow up under a law based system.

In a nutshell there is a seperation of the flesh and spirit, a spirit (the new creature) cannot sin, and unfortunatly the spirit has been made subject to vanity(the flesh) which can sin, not willingly, but by the operation of God who has created both to work and do his will. Jesus took away the penality of sin and created in himself one new man fashioned after himself, but he never removed the sin nature from the man(flesh). If you are going to eccept onced saved, always saved it must be understood in faith and with the knowledge of the seperation of the flesh and spirit. Ye must be born again; and truly the first part of the phrase must be understood Once Saved. Let us get that right in our lives before we we worry of the eternal properties of the second part, Always Saved. Sincerely and I enjoy your web site.. EHaskell (author of Once Saved, Always Saved @ Trafford.com

P.S. those who view Hebrew 6 as a nay sayer to there security,need to see it from the view point of the Jews (the Hebrews) in the wilderness who were enlightened and tasted (mana) and were partakers of the spirit and yet they could not enter in because of there rejection (their unbelief,) and once there is the element of rejection or unbelief it is impossible to bring any one to repentance seeing they reject the very core of what is needed to enter in. For God so loved the world that he gave his only son, there is your enlightenedment ;there is your spirit, there is your tasting ,what will you do with it?

Dear Vicky:

Hi, This site is awesome. So is your music I love your voice and listing to the praise. I would like to thank you for your desire to serve the King of Kings and the Lord of Lords, Jesus Christ, our Lord, savior and Life. Amen. I would like to bless you, your ministry and your family. God Has given you an awesome ministry and a heart for worship that is a blessing to see and hear.

I would like to comment on your debate or your questions regarding “once saved always saved”. firstly I pray that the light and truth of Jesus will be seen and heard through my thoughts and what I believe regarding what scriptures say about this.
secondly even though there are scriptures that seem to imply that one could lose one “salvation”, in truth it is not the truth.

We need to look at the word. salvation the word means according to The new Webster's Dictionary:

1 a : deliverance from the power and effects of sin b : the agent or means that effects salvation. John 3:16 (my input)
2 : liberation from ignorance or illusion John 8:32 (my input)
3 a : preservation from destruction or failure b : deliverance from danger or difficulty
This is speaking spiritually: 1 Thessalonians 5:23

and the word saved means;

transitive verb 1 a : to deliver from sin b : to rescue or deliver from danger or harm c : to preserve or guard from injury, destruction, or loss )
3 b (1) : to keep from being lost to an opponent
4 : maintain, preserve <save appearances>intransitive verb 1 : to rescue or deliver someone
3 : to make a save

This is speaking soul:
look at 1st Thessalonians 5:23 that is the division between spirit and soul.

Taking these two things into account; here are a few scripture references that back this up:
John 3:16-18, Romans 6:1-10. these are just two for know that illustrate my point which is that the two words mean two different things. Jesus provides one with salvation through believing (to completely trust in or on Him; look at The amplified bible at these scriptures). And salvation through sanctification (growth into maturity).

On the cross Jesus becomes sin for man and provides atonement for our sin, right. This we all believe, at least I hope. He dealt with sin, death and the effects thereof, in and for man at and on the cross, Romans chapters 3-5 discusses this in detail. then Paul discusses how we also have been crucified with Jesus and also risen in newness of life in Christ Jesus. Romans 6:1-10. we need to note here what Paul is discussing here is what has happened to us spiritually for, by through and in Christ alone. this is our spiritual state in Christ that is we have been joined together with him and have become one with him in spirit. Therefore we cannot be separated from Him. A simple illustration I think is take; before you stir it together; a cup of coffee, (for those who don't drink black coffee) the sugar, milk and coffee, three separate things right, now mix them, they have been changed, it look different and tastes different, yet it is coffee read Galatians 2:20. now even if you had the best devices to separate the three things they can not be separated; that is if you were successful at achieving this, then the three things a. would still have traces of the other in each and b. they would no longer be in there original form. right therefore it is impossible. Hope you see my point here.

Thirdly Paul discusses how we have become a new creation in Christ Jesus; 2 Corinthians 5:17-21, and even then points out to the fact that Jesus was the first born of a new creation; Colossians 1:15. Also to drive this point home The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are the children of God Romans 8:16-18.
Romans 7 discusses how we have died to the law where sin gets it power,
so so far, we have by Christ death and resurrection we have been:
A. Redeemed – no longer guilty.
B. Justified – Made righteous – to have right standing with God.
C. Reconciled – Restored in right relation with God
D. Regenerated – formed or created again or to be spiritually reborn or converted
E.Sanctified – made holy and set apart
F. Crucified – old man (self) has died and it is no longer I who lives and I have been risen in newness of life and sit in the heavenly places. Romans 6:1-10, Galatians 2:20 and Colossians 3:3.

So salvation in your spirit is the final work of the cross Jesus said “it is Finished” John 19.28-30 but being saved in your soul is sanctification, In Hebrews 5:10-15 Paul exhorts us to no longer be on the milk of the word but to grow into maturity and eat solid meat, that way we no longer need to be taught again about righteousness, and that we will be able to distinguish between good and evil. that is what it means to work out your salvation with fear and trembling. It means that as we seek and choose Christ, denying our flesh their will be a battle in the mind. Romans 12: 2. Even Jesus said that we need to deny ourselves and pick up or cross, Matthew 16:21-27 here he is discussing that we need to lay down our lives for his name sake and recognize that he is the only one who can save us, or we will lose our lives, that is our soul, as our spirit has not yet been redeemed (all pre-cross, btw, Jesus only preached the law, not grace, as that did not happen until after his resurrection which was at Pentecost, which as you now the Holy spirit preached through peter and then later Paul to the gentile, as the Jew would not listen, amen) Jesus even went on to say that we need and will indeed drink from the same cup that he drank of, Matthew 20:23 and we need to die John 12:24 in order to live and bear fruit or a harvest, right. What is the harvest and or fruit, well it is the fruit if the spirit, which only the spirit produces, and we bear it, John 15 1-12 and Galatians 5:22-29.

Hebrews 10:26-31 first of all Paul is speaking to the Jew here. Also it is impossible to not sin willfully, as every sin we do is willful – no, but the sin problem was dealt with at the cross, so people do not go to hell because of sin, it is because the do not repent and accept Jesus's atonement on the cross and that is what these jews were believing that is that their sin could cause them to to go to hell, and Paul clarifies this by pointing out what the penalty of the law was, death, but with out repentance they would most surly be facing the lake of fire. note that he says that the tasted did they drink, Hebrews 6:4 no, Once a person comes to Jesus that is the point of repentance, as repentance is a spiritual issue not in the soul, even though we are to act and live from and on it, but first it starts in the heart, then the mind, then in action. it also means to agree with God, and I do not know about anyone else, however, the Holy Spirit convicted me that I was a sinner, I agreed, I repented, ask Jesus to forgive me and to cleanse me I invited him into my heart and he came rushing in Revelation 3:20, that is once and for all as Jesus is our high priest and his atonement is once and for all, also what this is saying is that they did not repent, and that being such that they were insulting the Holy Spirit, and trampling under foot the Son of God and therefore no matter how much they tried to find righteousness through the law it could not be attained, because it only leads to sin, as that is where sin gets it power, from the law, right. for a better commentary check out Bob George at people to people ministries, he has had the longest radio broadcast than any other radio evangalist, 25+ yrs now, here is his link: http://www.realanswers.net/realanswers/?p=43 understanding Hebrew 6:4 and 10:26-31.

In closing:

I could go on and on, but I think that as much as I enjoy the blog thing, this is not the venue to answer all these questions, however, here are a few suggestions and books that I have read that have open my eyes to the reality that one can not lose that which did not belong to him in the first place and that as we agree that it is a gift by God and through Jesus, but also by grace through faith that we are saved. Romans 10:17, Ephesians 2:4,5. Ephesians 2:8-10 (amplified) therefore God will not revoke on the covenant he made with Abraham. regarding Jesus and those who believe.
Jesus prayed for us in John 17 what a beautiful prayer it is, that we would be one with him and the father, and amongst ourselves. this was for future believers, earlier he even states that we belong to him and that we have been given to Him by the father and that nothing, can snatch us out of his hand. Paul even exhorts us that nothing can separate us from the love of God, Romans 8:38-39. and that also that we would come to comprehend the height, breadth, width and depth of his love for us, and this is what the Holy spirit does. Ephesians 3:14-21 Also we also need to note that Christ dwells within us believers. Colosians 1:26-27, and Jesus in Matthew 9:17 said that Neither is new wine put in old wineskins; for if it is, the skins burst and are [a]torn in pieces, and the wine is spilled and the skins are ruined. But new wine is put into fresh wineskins, and so both are preserved. we are the old wine flasks and if Jeus joined his spirit with our old dead spirit we would die, so he crucified us and made us new, and then joined us together with Him. Amen

a few last comments,
1. Satan has us working for things we already possess.
2.We are to work from victory not for it and we are to live in purpose not for permission. and
3. if we live like sparrows we will soar like eagles.
Here are the books and links.
1. the search for significance, by Robert, S Mcgee, this is a link to a text version of the book.
http://www.archive.org/stream/searchforsignifi0…
2. check out Neil T. Andersons site Freedom in Christ: http://www.ficm.org/newsite/index.php
3. Steve Mcvee at http://www.Gracewalk.org book is The Grace Walk
4. GFI (grace fellowship International) this is a great diagram http://www.gracefellowshipintl.com/pg/9 and check out the book handbook to happiness by Dr. Charles R. Solomon here is a link that you can get it from. http://www.gracefellowshipintl.com/pg/16 scroll down and it is about 12 books down also check out the ins and out of rejection, the Rejection syndrom, the way of acceptance, and lastly
5. Mike wells at http://abidinglife.com/2009/. He states that there is nothing that the nearness of Christ can not cure. Also check out his online resources, he has some fantastic articles regarding the Christian life and you can listen to him through some free mp3's here at this site: http://www.mikewellsdownload.com/16k.htm

God has really changed my life. I came from a broken background and a highly dysfunctional family, in short by the time I was 9 I was in a mental institution and diagnosed to be clinically insane, due to abuse, in many forms, abandonment, and lots of rejection. For many of my years, which I am now 38, I have struggled with God's purpose and guidance for me, even now I am having difficulties with employment, but that is mainly due to the economy here in Canada, however God has healed me from my past and from the pains of such, by crucifying it at the cross with Him, amen. He is doing some amazing work in me. In fact I have a heart for worship and I play drums in two worship bands at a couple of homeless shelters, lead worship at another church every second Thursday of the month, and also am working on putting together a worship CD called freedom. Trusting I Christ to bring this all together, Looking to start a worship team and go to local churches and if God willing the world. to spread how we can walk in the truth of His Grace, Power and Love through praise and worship. The name of the team is Alive In Christ (hope you do not mind me mentioning this on your site, simply just giving you a testimony of what Christ has done, for, in and what he is doing through me) as this is what we are, and being that we have been placed into eternal life, and grafted into the vine. Amen.
We are either in the life of Adam, going to the lake of fire, or in Christ going to eternity with Jesus. Amen
Thank you for the work your doing and for posting this “debate” as I enjoy a good bible discussion as you know iron sharpens iron. Again hope to here from you, God Bless you and

Love your Brother in Christ and Glory be to Jesus. Amen

Lee Brewster
AliveInChrist

hy vivky i like the qustion u posed of once saved always saved?
that would be a relavent qustion if salvation depened on us but thankfulley savlation dose not depend on us we can only theorise as to weather we can loose our salvation but the truth is that God dose desire us all to be saved and he knows those that will choose to rebell but he will ultmatley decide who he wants in heven and so the statment once saved always saved seems a little redundant seeing as we have no control over weater we r going to be in heven or not and weahterothers will find savlation but what we should do in responce is trat it as though it were true and live our lives sould out fro God.
much lv n blessings neil

I know I’m late to the party. I’ve promised myself I’ll try to wrestle though some of the important theological questions that plagued my 20′s before I turn 30 later this year. I’ve been encouraged heartily by your blog and the attitude of your commentees. I’m open to having my theology reformed as I have no idea really what I am writing about, no gospel training. Maybe this can be a goal for the next decade. Thanks for helping me think things through! Here goes. My stab in the dark. I haven’t been inside a Church building for a service since last Christmas:

I think bringing people to Christ is about bringing them to consciousness
in God. Interestingly I think some people can be conscious in God and
reject him. Others never realize their consciousness in God. Still more
understand but don’t reach their potential in asking Jesus to be their Saviour. I’m aware this sounds new age and potentially universalist.

I’m not sure, when he judges, Jesus will use the same measure for all
the people under the earth, who have ever lived, and who will go on to
live after us. I’m not sure he will be asking: “Have they prayed the
prayer?”

The reason for this is the law was given to produce repentance, a
greater reliance on God and a greater consciousness of how the individual
and community to whom the law was given (the ancient Hebrews) were
created in God and were, from the beginning, subject to his standards.

When the community couldn’t meet those legal standards set so high in
holiness I don’t think it was necessarily a cruelty. God’s holiness is
not a stick to beat His people with but rather a receptacle of His
grace. Rather, the law was an elaborate picture communicating to them,
while a good deal of their consciousness – who they thought they were –
matched God’s vision for creation, some of who they knew themselves to
be fell outside of God’s loving remit. The same picture the gospel gives
us today.

Jesus himself fulfilled the law and took our sins. It is better for us
to be conscious of this and respond to it in our hearts. But if somebody

is not fully conscious of this truth, and have not put their full faith
in God, in body, soul and spirit – their complete consciousness of who
they are this side of heaven, I think it is possible they may have a
partial consciousness of faith, via the timeless personhood of Jesus
and the Holy Spirit. The only
way to the Father is through the Son, but  – this is a flimsy metaphor,
advance apologies – Jesus was the answer to the exam before God asked
Moses to write the questions: questions without answers produce self
examination, but we can’t know by asking ourselves searching questions
if we are righteous. Only Jesus can tell us we are right. The Father
tells us we are right through the half metaphor of the life of Jesus.
The mystery of the incarnation. Jesus is the only answer to our
questions. He is the only righteous one. He has all of the answers and
this is why he was born as a priest in the order of

If somebody who is not literate in the gospel is examining
themselves and asking their spirit questions, I think it is possible
Jesus in his grace will provide them with answers. He is the good
shepherd. This doesn’t mean they will have a full consciousness of
themselves in Him, however, and our role as Christians is to bring those
who are unchurched and lost toward the full light of Christ, where they
can be found. Still, I believe there are people who get to this point
and loose themselves again. But the story of the prodigal tells us the
door is always open to return.

I think the key for us as Christians is to recognize, in those who are
not Christians, the consciousness of God, and draw them to a greater
consciousness of Him and of themselves. The sinners prayer is a popular
and effective way to do this, not least because it seems to us to be
unequivocal.

Beth, 

I like your comments, especially the last paragraph.

In the last 400 or so years we’ve had the benefit of printed bibles in increasing numbers of languages and even more recently the immediacy of finding bible passages we’re looking for with Google searches, or having Bibles on our computers, phones, whatever.

I think it’s easy for Christians to forget that it’s quite a recent thing that we would even be able to find a bible all in the same place and that we would generally have the ability to read it. For many hundreds of years your best experience of the Bible was (if you were one of the literate in Latin) whatever gospel or epistle you could get to read at a library near you (probably in a monastery somewhere). Or if you were illiterate, what your priest or other religious leader told you it meant.

For most of the Christian era there were no study guides or concordances or evangelistic tracts available to the masses. The Christian people were the Word themselves, and somehow able to convey the message. 

This says to me that there must be quite a lot of tolerance on the part of God and that his drawing people to himself must be at least as important as actually having a Bible to hand, and that “saved” has probably meant different things to different people over the last 2000 years.