The Crucified Life….

Hi friends,

Hope you had a great weekend! I led worship at Cottonwood Church, Los Alamitos, just outside of LA. It was a really special time – I made some great new friends and came home feeling really encouraged! Brandon and Matt, my drummer and bass player, loved it too. Matt even got his long curly hair cut short on the Saturday night – video clip to follow! So it was quite an eventful weekend!

I was chatting with my friend Wendy on the phone today (you can follow her on Twitter…. she’s “wendybeechward”). (She is also a friend of another of my Twitter/Blog buddies “AussieJoy”)

We were discussing how you strike the balance in life between living as a person “crucified with Christ” and therefore dead to your own will, choices and desires, and yet living a “purpose driven life” and “your best life now”… all of which are really good things to aim for – to find your place in God’s plan and to be fulfilled, joyful and energized.

Bonhoeffer is a favorite author of mine. One of his greatest works is “The cost of discipleship”. In it he writes “when Christ calls a man, he bids him ‘come and die’”. It’s so true. The Apostle Paul said “it’s no longer I that live, but Christ who lives in me… for I have been crucified with Christ…I am dead to the world…”

Joel Osteen writes: “God wants us to prosper financially, to have plenty of money, to fulfill the destiny He has laid out for us” .Rick Warren writes that God has a definite plan and purpose for each of our lives, where we will be energized as we find our eternal purpose. I love Bonhoeffer, Joel Osteen and RIck Warren…they are all awesome, but how does all this fit together?

How do we know if we are walking on the right path or in the right place? If life is tough, does that mean that we are outside of God’s will, or inside of it? When is a tough situation something that you stick out because we are called to ‘die’ and when do you step out of it because you don’t feel like you are joyful or prospering? How do we know when a situation is like ‘refining fire’ for the growth of our character, and when it is something we need to move away from for the good and health of our hearts?

How do you personally see the balance between living the “crucified life” where we have given up our rights and our desires… yet living the “abundant life, life in all it’s fullness” that Jesus promises us?

Thoughts..?

Love,

Vicky

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  • http://www.jonathanpaulmusic.com/ Jonathan

    Great post, Vicky! I think all of the authors you mention here have some good things to say. I also think that we need to find our own personal balance and direction through a close relationship with the Holy Spirit.

    In my opinion, saying that either tough circumstances or a comfortable life are evidence of living in God’s will (or out of it) is rather shaky ground. Christians should be listening to God’s voice and know by this how close or far our day-to-day reality is from His direction for our life. I’ll bet most of us have a pretty good idea (of at least part) of what God wants us to be doing and where our gaps are. For those who feel like they have no clue, He promises wisdom to those who ask. It may or may not be worth noting that it’s difficult to use this method to determine what *other* Christians – leaders or otherwise – ought to be doing! :o)

    I think there are plenty of things that God calls at least some of us to do that require lots of resources. However, if most of the resources coming our way end up going toward our own creature comforts, it might be time to rethink some things.

    Finally, Paul’s attitude in Philippians 4:11b-13 is a great example for the rest of us: “I have learned to be content whatever the circumstances. I know what it is to be in need, and I know what it is to have plenty. I have learned the secret of being content in any and every situation, whether well fed or hungry, whether living in plenty or in want. I can do everything through him who gives me strength.”

  • http://annagregston.blogspot.com Anna

    No opinions form me this time, but Vicky, do you really believe this!?
    “God wants us to prosper financially, to have plenty of money…”

  • http://carolynefarrell.wordpress.com Carolyne

    I don’t really feel qualified enough to be able to answer any of your theological questions as I’m still pretty new to all this. I do have a question of my own though re your last twitter – you said you were going to read your Bible verses before going to bed, is that something you do every night? I grew up in a Catholic home and have moved away from Catholocism because of it’s ritualised nature so I tend now to change my prayer routine as soon as it starts to feel stale and that I am forcing myself to pray but I recognise the importance of reading the bible and feel it should be something central in my life. I am going through a phase where it is definitely starting to feel like ritual more than passion – my question is basically do you ever get that and do you, or anyone reading this, have any idea how to keep it fresh?

  • http://www.ourrisingsound.com Kyle

    Joel Osteen’s quote “God wants us to prosper financially” is complete junk with absolutely no biblical truth to it. So I wouldn’t even try to have that makes sense along side anything scriptural, like Warren and Bonhoeffer’s quotes, because Joel’s gospel is prosperity, not Christ. If God wanted us all to be wealthy than Jesus must not have walked in God’s will and therefore sinned because he was poor and homeless. Any gospel that says Jesus didn’t live a perfect life, devoted to the Father’s will is not the gospel of Christ and should be counted as heresy. Sorry Joel, love ya, but you need some truth my man.

  • http://aussiejoyslife.blogspot.com/ Joy Argow

    Bring on the haircut video…

  • http://www.myspace.com/jamie_ima_hooker Jamie. =)

    This is for Carolyne…
    One of the things that the youth pastor I am working under has taught me is that when things start feeling comfortable or routine, its time to switch it up. Change the location where you are praying, change the direction you are going in with you devotional reading. Another thing that I do to help not making it seem so much of a routine is I change up when I do my devotional. Sometimes its on my lunch break, sometimes its when I wake up in the morning, sometimes its when I go to bed. Also, pray anytime something comes to you. You don’t have to wait for a specific “prayer time” to pray. If something is on your heart, talk to God about it (internally or through your mouth) WHENEVER it comes up.

    As far as the questions posted by Vicky. I would have to say praying about the direction God has for you is the best bet. If you feel that you are where God wants you to be, that’s all that matters. And I agree with Jonathan about using Paul as a role model in this type of situation…

  • Wendy

    Great blog!

    Been thinking about this all day… I am fascinated by the Joel quote and can’t quite believe that he said it (obviously I believe he did – trust you totally Vicky!) Seriously I’ve been trying to think where there is a passage of the Bible which comes remotely close to this statement, and I couldn’t think of one!

    This whole ‘come to Jesus and have a totally (materially) blessed life’ is, IMHO, a product of a consumerist, western, self-centered approach to life/faith. I’m not sure how much of it equates to authentic discipleship. I read a lot about sacrifice in the bible and the cost of following Jesus. Strangely I don’t read much about ‘getting lots of stuff!’

    Better go cos I’m off to read my ‘poverty and justice’ bible!

    Stay lucky! [for those who don't know this is commonly used sign off from the home country]

    Wendy
    x

  • http://www.osheadavis.com oshea davis

    How do you personally see the balance between living the “crucified life” where we have given up our rights and our desires… yet living the “abundant life, life in all it’s fullness” that Jesus promises us?

    First I do not agree with Joel’s statement.

    Paul did more for the sake of “The Ministry” and any did but he was dirt poor most of the time. Which says to me all you need to have the truth in your mouth and the Holy Spirit to makes hearts to be the good soil.

    I would agree that a close relationship of obedience, friendship, love and faith to the Son of God, Jesus Christ crucified, is the “abundant life” and Jesus speaks of for us, now.

    Honestly this question has much to do with the question you asked, Vicky, about how much has God’s Kingdom come now on earth.

    As I said in that question ONLY part of God’s Kingdom that has come in full now is the Gospel! Which why a live full of sincere repentance, love, faith, in Jesus Christ crucified is the abundant life Jesus speaks that we have now. In Heaven we have and “inheritance” (which includes all good things including wealth, if you can still call it that), but it us in Heaven (Ephesians 1:11) Now we get foretastes of our inheritance.

    If you are in great joy of surveying the wonderful cross of Jesus Christ today and truly found your contentment therein, strongly believing your God showed His love to us by being slaughtered for your sins, then you know you are in God’s will!

    Sincerely: Oshea
    http://www.osheadavis.com

  • http://whatisthekingdom.wordpress.com R.

    I have a video of my pastor on my blog, that I think is a great insight into hardship/suffering and how that works for our good in God’s plan.

    “The Devil Gave Me A Flat Tire”
    Pastor Gary Zamora

    Watch it at http://whatisthekingdom.wordpress.com

    Be blessed!

  • Alex

    I have to take issue with the Osteen statement. Granted, I don’t have the entire context of his quote, but taken at face value, it doesn’t sound right to me.
    I tend to lean more towards the teachings of John Piper: God is primarily interested in me worshipping and glorifying Him, not necessarily in my financial security. I would actually draw from my observations and experiences that people who are “financially secure” tend to rely on their finances more than on God’s provisions. In this case, God providing financial abundance to everyone would actually push some people away from relying on His grace.
    Jesus himself often speaks in the Gospels about money being a stumbling block for many. Honestly, I’d like to see the scriptures Joel Osteen based his statement on, or at least the full context of it. Until then, I take issue with his statement.

  • http://carolynefarrell.wordpress.com Carolyne

    @jamie – thanks for those words, they are a great help!

  • Rob Longhurst

    Seems that God is challenging quite a number of people along these lines just now. I have been working through Andrew Murray’s book “School of Obedience” and finding it very challenging. (you can read it for free at http://www.ccel.org/ccel/murray/obedience.html ) He basically says that total fulfillment and satisfaction in life and a life pleasing to God are all to be found only when we totally let go and submit to what God wants.

    I think that too often, we want a “bolt-on” Christianity where we can convince ourselves that we are living for God, but where we stay in control.

    I’m quite sure that total submission to God’s will is not incompatible with “having it all” in this one sense – God can work fully through a person who is fully submitted. He will resource His work in that person fully. That work may involve the stewardship of amazing earthly riches, or immense difficulty, even martyrdom. Either way, “I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full.” (John 10:10 NIV)

  • http://www.martinjanssen.com Martin

    If ultimately what we strife for is the Kingdom, why would we strife NOW to be bigger than a camel… Coz Jesus said it is harder for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God than for a camel to go through the eye of a needle.

    A gospel of prosperity is nowhere to be found in the bible. Unless you interpret a life of abundance as such. But what can abundance be? What does really count? In the end?

    Hmm, weird thing, I just started my iPod and the first song that came up was this one :D

    Jason Upton – Poverty

    There’s a power in poverty that breaks principalities
    and brings the authority’s down to their knees
    There’s a brewing frustration and ageless temptation
    to fight for control by some manipulation

    But the God of the kingdoms and the God of the Nations
    the God of creation sends his revelation
    Thru the homeless and penniless Jesus the son
    The poor will inherit the Kingdom to come

    Where will we turn when our world falls apart
    And all of the treasures we’ve stored in our barns
    can’t buy the Kingdom of God?
    Who will we praise when we’ve praised all our lives
    men who build Kingdoms and men who build fame
    What will we fear when all that remains
    Is God on His throne, with a child in his arms,
    and love in his eyes
    And the sound of his heart cries

  • http://www.myspace.com/jamie_ima_hooker Jamie. =)

    @ Carolyne…you’re very welcome!

    @ Martin…I had never heard that song before, but I like it. I think it fits perfectly with what we are discussing here. =)

  • http://www.SaintLewisMusic.com/ Shannon Lewis

    I simply try to define “abundant life” as Jesus does, which looks only ever so slightly like what Osteen says it does, and far more – but not exactly – like what Bonhoeffer points towards.

  • http://www.SaintLewisMusic.com/ Shannon Lewis

    @Alex – indeed, the promises of the abundant life are far bigger than, and may not necessarily include, financial security: He promises more of Himself, and when we grasp this, we will find ourselves walking in “Kingdom living”.

  • http://www.martinjanssen.com Martin

    @Shannon: If you look up the song “Captivated” by Vicky on YouTube ( /watch?v=YKvpqmhLgTw ) and see the images of Jesus with his disciples then I’d take that intimacy and friendship and love over all the money in the world. That is what I call a life of abundance.

    but… here is the other side of this coin (or maybe it’s still the same side ;) )
    I have a friend who is really smart, a real businessman at heart and he loves Jesus… a lot.
    And his goal is to bring Jesus to the rich people. In order to achieve that he wants to make a lot of money to be in those circles.

    Like Paul says:
    “Even though I am free of the demands and expectations of everyone, I have voluntarily become a servant to any and all in order to reach a wide range of people: religious, nonreligious, meticulous moralists, loose-living immoralists, the defeated, the demoralized—whoever. I didn’t take on their way of life. I kept my bearings in Christ—but I entered their world and tried to experience things from their point of view. I’ve become just about every sort of servant there is in my attempts to lead those I meet into a God-saved life. I did all this because of the Message. I didn’t just want to talk about it; I wanted to be in on it!”
    (1 Corinthians 9:19-23 – The Message)

  • Wendy

    @ Martin

    I like the sound of your friend. I also have a friend who is incredibly talented. He created some software which makes him millions of pounds every year. He lives in the circles of rich people but he doesn’t keep the money – he gives it away to projects/people he believes in. From what I see, he probably gives away 95% of everything he earns. And, by doing this he powerfully illustrates the fact that he is not owned by his talent, his money or his power but that he is owned by Jesus.

    One of my issues with the quote we’re talking about is the link between being financial prosperity and fulfilling your destiny. The implication is that I can’t fulfill my destiny if I am poor. This isn’t a biblical worldview at all – it is a success psychology. This kind of statement also promotes the idea that God is on the side of the rich but not on the side of the poor – which is clearly wrong and totally unbiblical.

    Frankly, I could go on all night about this because this kind of statement is so damaging – it reduces the gospel to something which is all about me and whether I am a success measured by ‘the worlds’ standards and not at all about Jesus.

    Sorry for the rant!
    Wendy

  • Vicky Beeching

    Wow folks, this is very cool dialogue! I love that we are able to share thoughts here like this!

    I agree that it’s very damaging when financial prosperity is seen as walking in God’s will, and poverty is seen as not walking in God’s will. Jesus was completely poor- and He walked perfectly in God’s will. So why did he never become rich? Why didn’t the Father bless Him with a huge home? Instead Jesus said “the Son of Man has nowhere to lay His head”.

    The same with the disciples in Acts where the lame man walked – Peter said “silver and gold have I NONE, but what I have I give to you, in the name of Jesus get up and walk!”. Those guys were walking closely with the Lord, yet they had no material blessings… Interesting eh? : )

    @Anna: I hope that answers your concerns!

    @Wendy: I’m laughing at your IMHO, which I assume means ‘in my humble opinion’.. I’m going to steal that!!

    @ Martin: Thanks for the Jason Upton lyrics.. he’s one of my favorite worship leaders.

  • http://www.clarksoncafe.com Kelly

    wow- great discussion and thoughts presented!

    I think one of the biggest concerns I have with the whole Joel Olsteen and even Rick Warren’s quote is this: As Americans we have a very limited view on the world. Americans make up only a fraction of the world’s population (about 6%). What we define as wealth is radically different than the way the majority of the world defines as riches. After coming back recently from a missions trip in Cambodia I realized this jarring thought. As we “American Christians” are pursuing our dreams, our ambitions and wealth (all for the sake of the Kingdom) we are ignoring the cries of the orphans/widows/underground church overseas who desperately need our resources. God never wants commands us to pursue our own wants but rather commands us to pursue the needs of the refugee, orphan and widow.

    Imagine if our dream was to make others rich? Paul says in Corinthians most gladly will I be spilled out and spent for you, though the more I love you, the less I am loved! That is the power of the true Gospel.

    All of this to say..yes to die to self is when true joy and peace is found. Jesus never promises us wealth. In fact He warns us by asking is the servant greater than the Master? If He had no riches but gave it all away, how could I expect a different standard of living as my Master?

  • Steve

    I believe that we should spend this life preparing to live in the next one. When Jesus said, “I came that they might have life, and have it more abundantly” (St. John 10:10), I think that He was talking about having an abundance of blessings in the age to come, not about becoming wealthy and having a perfect problem-free life in this one. Many of the Saints lived lives of abject poverty, were persecuted by non-Christians, and suffered many hardships, but they continued to follow Christ and be faithful to Him. As for having lots of money, remember the Parable of the Rich Man.

    And He spake a parable unto them, saying, The ground of a certain rich man brought forth plentifully: and he thought within himself, saying, What shall I do, because I have no room where to bestow my fruits? And he said, This will I do: I will pull down my barns, and build greater; and there will I bestow all my fruits and my goods. And I will say to my soul, Soul, thou hast much goods laid up for many years; take thine ease, eat, drink, and be merry. But God said unto him, Thou fool, this night thy soul shall be required of thee: then whose shall those things be, which thou hast provided? So is he that layeth up treasure for himself, and is not rich toward God. (St. Luke 12:16-21)

    In the 61st Psalm, it says: “If riches flow in, set not your hearts thereon.” (Psalm 61:10, LXX)

    Jesus said: “For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.” (St. Luke 12:34)

    St. Paul said: “Charge them that are rich in this world, that they be not highminded, nor trust in uncertain riches, but in the living God, who giveth us richly all things to enjoy; that they do good, that they be rich in good works, ready to distribute, willing to communicate; laying up in store for themselves a good foundation against the time to come, that they may lay hold on eternal life. (I Tim. 6:17-19)

    It is possible to be wealthy and inherit eternal life, but we must remember that Christ did not become incarnate and die so that we can be greedy, covetous people. He became incarnate and died so that we can become unselfish people who love God more than anyone else and other people as He has loved us.
    Greedy people cannot live in the next world. Can you imagine someone living in the Kingdom of God with the Apostles, Martyrs, Prophets, and the Righteous and always having their covetous eyes on what someone else has, or thinking of ways to exploit someone else in the Kingdom of God so that he can have more?
    God is not going to override our freewills and automatically change us into the kind of people He wants us to be. If we don’t want to change, then we will never change. If we want to be greedy and do not want to fight against our sinful passions and the demons, then we will always be enslaved to greed. If we are enslaved to greed, we cannot inherit the Kingdom of God. The same holds true to those who are enslaved to lust, jealousy, pride, etc.

    Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the Kingdom of God. (I Cor. 6:9,10)

    When we die, we either die in a state of becoming what God wants us to be or in a state of not becoming what He wants us to be. If we die while in the process of becoming what He wants us to be, then we will continue to go from one degree of glory to the next until we reach full theosis. The purification process will continue after death. If we die unwilling to forsake our sins and enslaved to our sinful passions, then we will always be enslaved to the very sins we refuse to forsake.

    “Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?” (Rom. 6:16)

    “The wages of sin is death.” (Rom. 6:23) All of us are already born with bodies that die. Death is what we inherit from our parents and ultimately from our first parents, Adam and Eve. St. Paul was talking about the Second Death in Romans 6:16 and 6:23.

    We must pursue holiness and pray that God have mercy on us. We are ultimately saved by the mercy of God, but we must still stay busy at becoming holy people.
    As for those who teach the prosperity gospel, I have these passages of Scripture to show their error.

    For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living. (Rom. 14:9)

    No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon. (St. Matt. 6:24)

    Jesus Christ did not die, arise from the dead, and revive so that we can serve mammon (that is, money). He did all of that so that we would serve Him as our Lord and Master.

    Steve

  • http://connectionyouth.com Brian

    I don’t believe there is a “balance” to be struck here. Rather it is just a principle to be fully obeyed – that is, the principle of the crucified life that you discussed.
    It is when you lose your life that you will truly find it. It is when a grain of wheat falls to the ground and dies that it bears much fruit. Osteens quote is just simply false and has no biblical basis, and Rick Warrens quote becomes true for us only as we lose our life to Christ and live the crucified life that Bonhoeffer calls for. Matt 16:25 John 12:24

  • Don

    Our only real joy should be becoming like Jesus Christ. We must accept His death on the Cross and the fact that He rose from the dead, yes. But when He said in John Chap. 14, I am the life, it was the life He lived before the disciples for 3-1/2 years and they were to follow that example, and so are we also. That is God’s eternal purpose mentioned in Eph. 3:11 — the fulfillment of Gen. 1:26 in all of its glory.

  • Jeremiah Steele

    Well said.

  • Allen

    Perhaps we need to redefine Prosperity. Americans have only one standard for it. I had an elderly man who had raised 9 children after his wife die tell me, “I'll tell you what prosperity is, it is knowing God and living with him forever.” Not bad

  • http://www.facebook.com/parabyl Bill Hines

    It's easy to have faith in something you have control over!
    I have used this statement many times in teaching.
    I am not going to try & tell you that my answer to your question is the right one. But my thoughts are this:
    “Enter into my rest” Hebrews Look it up.
    God gives us the power to make wealth Deut 8
    I believe there is no other life than a life with the total understanding that we died with Christ! I no longer live, but Christ in me!!!
    I love this! & I am In-Love with God.
    When I first met eyes with my wife, I was lost in her. I thought she was beautiful, smart, energetic, strong-willed & I knew I had to get to know more about her!
    I would ask questions about her life, what her likes & dislikes were, How she felt about situations in her life, what really made her happy. I just always wanted to be around her. I still do. I don't want to be around her because I feel like I have to or need to, just because I want to!! I love my wife whether we have money or not (& we have been in both places) I do things for my wife, not because it is my Husbandly duty but because I am completely In-Love with my wife even 10 years later.
    Even moreso with God!! I want to know only Christ & Him crucified. I don't worry about reading the Word, Praying, Doing good deeds, etc… They come because I Love to be with those I Love. & God Loves me more than I will ever understand!!
    Life Abundant!! Yet Crucified!!
    Just my thoughts

  • http://www.bedheadmanipulator.net/ Owen

    Not fresh in the morning? I have often noticed that some are fond of leaving a little gap between the head board of their bed and the wall. The reason maybe that it made sweeping and vacuuming the area between bed and wall a little easier, like a space where the broom or vacuum hose could reach.

  • leebrewster

    Dear Vicky:

    Hi. I love reading your blog. It is very interesting, and encouraging. I would like to attempt to answer this, the best way I know how. Now I am not going to presume I have all the answers as I do not, however being one that I think has a relative good understanding of the Bible (only by revelation) then I would like to answer this mainly from my personal experience with God. If I am really crucifies with Christ (which I am) then it is His life, not mine that I am experiencing, it is His vision, His dream, and His Ministry, not “mine”, that is, if it is He that is living in me, and it is no longer “I” who lives. I like Colossians 3:3, as it states. For you have died and your life is hidden with Christ in God.” If I have really died, and lost all my rights then, as Paul says then it is no longer I that lives, but Christ that lives in me.I know that I was repetitive, but I was to make my point. I am 38 yrs old, I have a serious back problem, osteoarthritis, Praise God. I am currently unemployed as my back won't permit me to do alot of work. However I have a heart for worship, I write, play guitar and drums and lead worship at a small fellowship with men, as I have mentioned before in a last posting that i made, which does take it's toll on my back from time to time. I think I can get away with doing it though because I am sitting down, therefore, not as strenuous. so back to my point here. If it is me that is living, Well let me just say, I would not be doing anything, but God says go, you know Vicky I used to stumble on what God will was for me, and “my life”, and then God revealed to me that my focus was on me, my life, my will, and that is why I was so confused, but then God showed me that it is not God will for my life to do this or that, but rather it is His will to do this or that in and through me, not me, but Him, not mine but His. that is if I am really crucified with Him, right. Also that I am a partaker of the divine nature. I have a close friend that I used to live with way up here in Toronto, Canada. One morning, even though I have gone into this cupboard probably 100 times, there it was, after I closed the door, was a piece of paper taped to the door and it read “Good morning. This is God speaking, today I am going to work in your life, and I do not need your help” I think we have really missed the point here, we keep asking God what His will is for our lives are and what he wants us to do, where He wants us to go, what Ministry He wants us to be in, etc… etc…, yet how often do we stop and ask God what He wants to do through us, where He wants to go, what Ministry He wants to touch, or what he wants do that day, or in this situation, or at the moment. I mean if it really is His life and if ours is dead. You were talking about a lady who said that Jesus was in the car with her back in March of 2008 then You said The verse thats been on my mind ever since I saw the video above, is that”with God nothing is impossible”. Do I really believe that? Would I live differently if I TRULY believed that with every fiber of my being?
    I ask you would you “LIVE” differently if you TRULY believed that with every fiber of your being that you were crucified with Christ? Probably, that is you may see things differently, you may even do things differently?. Once I saw what God was trying to show me then I gave up on the worry of “missing His will for me” because I saw that in fact I was in His will, because Christ is in me, and if I am allowing Him to live His life through me, then at those moments it is truly “I” who no longer lives but Christ that lives within me. Also I believe that wherever one is at any given time, that it is in fact God will for that person to be where they are, that is because wherever that person is, that is exactly where and what they need at that given time to see that it truly is Christ that lives, not us. It is at those places where we find the living God. DO “Remember” that Christ learned His obedience to the Father through His sufferings, what make us any different? As I said earlier, I am unemployed at this time in this life I am experiencing, however during this time, I have been seeking God and what His will is, and it has been during this time that I have had to learn what it means to live in total dependence upon Christ that lives within. I mean being honest, there are times where I have not had enough money to even feed myself, and if what Joel Olsteen writes: “God wants us to prosper financially, to have plenty of money, to fulfill the destiny He has laid out for us”, is true, (Not saying he is wrong, just saying not so sure that he interpretation is correct) then why I am experiencing poverty, is it sin? doubt that, as that has been forgiven, is it disobedience? doubt that as Jesus is my obedience. I could guess all kinds of things that it may be, however, the point is it has been at those times in my life that i have learned to walk by faith and not by sight. I like Joel as well, I enjoy listening to him, he is very encouraging. I Also believe that Jesus is my Destiny and anything short of that is me seeking to live my life apart from Christ, which as you know is impossible as Jesus said” I am the vine, you are the branches and apart from me you can do nothing” John 15:5. I know that I have been giving the “Abundant life” again Jesus himself. I mean if Abundance was based upon circumstances then I would most certainly qualify for one who would not have it, but being as I said that Jesus is my abundance, then I can truly say I am living, as it is really He that is living in me, note by the way it Paul states “the life I life in the flesh, I live by the faith in the Son of God”, so A. Who's life. B. Who's faith do we live by? If it is God will for one to have “financial abundance” then I agree with Joel, but let us not forget that God does not give us these things for us, but rather for Him and to accomplish His will through us. at this point I think I can say that thus far I do not have “financial Abundance” probably due to the fact that my motive, that is I have asked amiss because I have wanted to have the money for me, and therefore, have wanted to store up for me my own treasures, to build my kingdom and have others look at what I posses. I mean how can God bless me with this when He knows that i am going to squander it. I think that God has brought me to this place of “poverty” so that I learn not to waste what little I do have, and to learn to live like a sparrow. Thus, if I prove myself to be faithful, again Christ, not I. then God can trust me in the much. Hope this makes sense and helps you. I to also enjoy these “theological debates”.

    Love your bro in Christ Jesus

    Lee brewster
    Alive In Christ.

  • scott

    I have been crucified by all that claimed to love me. My story is more than most can handle because few have ever seen the hatred of those around them. I believe in GOD and all that he has prepared for me. Most Christians are self servant assholes that follow their pack rather than follow GOD's word.

  • scott

    I have been crucified by all that claimed to love me. My story is more than most can handle because few have ever seen the hatred of those around them. I believe in GOD and all that he has prepared for me. Most Christians are self servant assholes that follow their pack rather than follow GOD's word.

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  • Charlesmariotti

    Hello Vicky. Truthfully we as Americans should say we are wealthy. Consider past eras compaired to ours. We have cars, planes, trains, the modes of transportation would stagger the minds of those from the 18th century and earlier. We have stores full of food we pick from shelves and displays. An abudance of medicines, doctors, medical advancements, we live longer. We have communication devices such as TV, a fequency that travels through the air and transforms into pictures and sound. WOW! Land Lines, Cell phones, PCs, Laptops, Internet, Wi-Fi, cameras, film, video, recording tapes and digital media. Our homes have running hot and cold water, electricity, light, air conditioning, heaters etc…. Let’s condider God has blessed this nation and given this generation POWER to get wealth to establish HIS COVENANT. We connect with his will; we do not give up our rights and desires, but we exchange earthly rights and lustful desires with heavenly ones. In this we find peace, joy, and contentment and abundance for whatever we are called to do because that is the NEW CREATURES design. If we find ourselves stressing, check our motives. Are we lusting or are we seeking first the kingdom of God? If lusting, REPENT, or change your mind and course. The Christian life is not complicated or confusing, those things are from the evil one. We are free and empowered by God’s love to persue those things he has put on our heart, to prosper (succeed) in all we do, and to be MORE than overcomers. We HAVE BEEN given all we need to live a godly life. It’s all available and a fun part of life is seeking these sometimes hidden treasures and mysteries. Remember, if we are not tested we don’t know who or what we are or learn how to stand. If there is no resistance is there any growth or maturity? Life can be hard because LIFE is Powerfull. How wonderful to know each experience we have works together for our good. Why? That we might experience the power, favor, and love of our creator and that our life reflect that and thus glorifies Him who is worthy of our praise and thanks. Should we not just be who we are, how we are designed, and drop the religous falsehood and traditions that make us unattractive. I wrote this line in a screenplay yet to be funded. “To be what I’m not to be preverts the truth of who I am.” We are GOD’S beloved creation perfectly made and designed for Him to Him and by HIM. Let it be!