Gospel Today Magazine pulled from Lifeway

31 Comment(s)

1. Miss you. Hope to see u soon!!!

   Los | Sep 19, 2008 | Reply

2. Since the Southern Baptist Convention (which owns Lifeway stores) does not believe in women’s ordination, it is only appropriate that they would not promote and display (and, thereby, endorse) a magazine promoting women’s ordination. I would be very surprised if I saw this magazine cover in a Lifeway store, and I’m sure that many would object to it. We should applaud the SBC and Lifeway for being true to their convictions.

   Kevin Davis | Sep 19, 2008 | Reply

3. As for women’s ordination itself, I think the biblical argument against it is pretty strong. Jesus was not concerned with conforming to society (just the opposite), but he still believed it was important to appoint only men for his apostles. Plus, there is Paul’s belief that husbands are head of the family as Christ is head of the Church. This is pretty clear to me, but we should also remember that it is the husband who is to lay down his life for his family (as Christ did for the Church). Also, men as leaders is an essential role model for boys and other men, but we are losing this more and more in our society. I think the consequences of female pastors would be devastating, and may very well lead to the sort of feminization of the Church that is found in so many mainline Protestant churches. There are many great and devout female pastors out there (I’ve known them), but I believe we must reject it.

   Kevin Davis | Sep 19, 2008 | Reply

4. I really can’t believe the comments! I think that rejecting female pastors is equal to rejecting women’s worth, and this thought from the SBC is in my opinion a patriarchal thought that has nothing to do with God. Furthermore, there is a lot of proof in the Bible that women are allowed to be pastors or leaders.
   For example, Paul announced a couple of female leaders. These women led churches. Furthermore, that Jesus only had male disciples is logical, because women didn’t have many rights at that time and therefore couldn’t be influential to people. Moreover, Jesus was surrounded by a lot of women (for example: Mary of Magdala, in the eyes of the pharisees it was unaccepting that Jesus even talked to her). I really want to emphasize that women played a very important role in Jesus’ life. Maybe not in a leading role, but nontheless they were crucial. Think of Mary, who gave birth to Jesus. I can name a lot of arguments against the opinion that we must reject female leaders. I would like to refer to the book “Why not Women?”, written by Loren Cunningham and David J. Hamilton (two men!). This book explains a lot about how the thoughts of unworthy women came into the world. They give a lot of historical context and this is essential to understanding certain Bible passages from Paul or other Bible passages.
   The comments from Kevin really hurt me as a woman. Kevin, you said that “men as leaders is an essential role model for boys and men”. I think that’s absolutely true, but what about role models for girls and women? I think that’s also very important, because of the problem that a lot of women face with, namely a lack of self esteem. This is the cause for a lot of problems, like prostitution, (sexual) abuse (often perpetraded by men!) and other things. So I don’t deny that men should be role models for boys (because that can prevent abuse and other problems), but women also should have role models to see that their only job in the world is not to be a housewife but to stand in their power and to find out what God has meant for them.
   I want to react to want last opinion. Kevin you said that “the consequences of female pastors would be devastating, and may very well lead to the sort of feminization of the Church that is found in so many mainline Protestant churches”. I don’t know what you assume to be feminine (I think “feminine” is often associated with very negative terms so I don’t even like the word), but why would feminization be devastating? I think both feminity and masculinity cannot be devastating and I do think that there are women who don’t belong in a leading role, but only because they are not meant for a leading role. This is also true for men. There are a lot of mean who want to be pastor, but don’t have the capacities because God has another plan for them. And why do you believe to reject female pastors, even though you have known many great and devout female pastors. Isn’t that proof that there are really women out there who are meant to be a pastor? God gives us our qualities and if a women has a heart for God and is a great leader I think there’s nothing wrong with her being a pastor. I would like to advice you to read books about this subject and especially the book that I mentioned, because I think these opinions about women are devasting for the Church.
   I will stop commenting now, but I’m really passionate about this subject and I hate it that these patriarchal opinions still exist.

   Sanne | Sep 20, 2008 | Reply

5. Without getting into a whole of scriptural interpretation I just have to ask this one question. Has anyone seen any of these women minister? Good God Almighty! Sheryl Brady is DEFINITELY called to pastor. When it comes to questions like this, I always look at the fruit. I was raised in a pentecostal church where the pastor died suddenly and a woman pastor was put in that position. It was supposed to only be temporary, but under her leadership our church grew leaps and bounds and saw its most fruitful years. I’m a woman in ministry now because of her great example. What I loved was her husband never tried to stop her. He supported her in every way possible and that made the transition easier.
   When it comes down to it, I believe women can be pastors, but can also submit to a male bishop or leader as their overseer.
   As for these women on the cover; research their ministry. The PROOF is in the pudding

   Kelli | Sep 20, 2008 | Reply

6. Sanne said “The comments from Kevin really hurt me as a woman

   I really, really, really mean this as gently as possible….

   If you make decisions by what “hurts you as a women” you may be making “being a women” a higher calling that following Christ.

   Christ hurt, offended, called out lots of things in people that might not seem so bad, may even be morally neutral. Obedience doesn’t always make sense to us, but we are called to be obedient. Sometimes God says, “just because” and doesn’t owe us any explanation.

   And I haven’t even really addressed the topic of Vicky’s post… I just think that when we don’t allow scripture to interpret us and challenge us, that is not Christ-like.

   Jesus had a very small church because he didn’t have a problem offending folks.

   All this to say, don’t come at the topic from a “personal, north-American/European, I have my rights, my culture and society say’s this” sort of view point. That won’t stand up.

   Jason_73 | Sep 20, 2008 | Reply

7. There are probably things in a lot of Christian stores that should not be there–this may or may not be one of them. I think this issue should be handled with grace and humility since all the Bible passages are actually debatable that are cited in scripture as to their interpretation.

   I think a lot of our arguments are on semantics. The word “pastor” is not biblical necessarily in the way we use it today. The word minister is “deacon” women were deacons, who even preached such as Stephen in Acts. So, the only clear thing that I can see is that women are under male authority of “elders” or “bishop” but that they have all the gifts that men have. There is no difference. The only biblical office that women cannot have is “elder” or “bishop” which if you do not define that as “pastor” than no big to have a woman pastor. Make sense? But, this pastor would be under the authority of the spiritual group called elders. This is not an equality or gifting issue just as a married couple has the role of father and mother not being the same but are equal in value and worth. But, a father has a role of dispensing God’s authority in the family even though the mother as a child of God has all the authority of Christ.

   I hope I make sense to someone here.

   Rich Kirkpatrick | Sep 20, 2008 | Reply

8. Sanne’s only biblical argument is one slight reference by Paul to women in the church, yet this is the same Paul who was insistent that the husband is head of the wife (once again, as Christ is head of his bride, the Church). So, Paul sounds pretty patriarchal. Would you condemn Paul? Would you say that he rejects women’s worth? What exactly was the role of these women that Paul references? We don’t know. You can’t build an argument for women’s ordination on such slight grounds. As for Jesus choosing only males to be his apostles and leaders of his Church, this has to be taken seriously. You can’t dismiss it with “Oh but society back then was patriarchal.” That doesn’t work because Jesus had no problem with challenging societal norms, including the most sacred norms of the Law as interpreted by the Jewish leaders of his time.

   As for role models, no one can seriously say that there is not a much greater dearth in male role models than female role models. And what is the primary female role model? Mothers. Men can’t be mothers, but no one is saying that this is matriarchal. Men can be fathers and, as fathers, they are heads of their brides and families (once again, as Christ is head of his bride, the Church). Likewise, in the Church, the male is head of the bride, the Church.

   Which position is following closer to scripture? And which is following closer to contemporary ideals of gender androgyny? I think the answer is pretty obvious.

   Kevin Davis | Sep 20, 2008 | Reply

9. Okay Vicki, you sparked some interesting discussion here!!! Rich is accurate theologically…check out your Bible folks…check out the Greek translation. Kevin, how can you imply Sanne doesn’t have a biblical argument…you really don’t either. From what I read, your comments seem personal too. Regarding your comment about feminization…weren’t male AND females made in God’s image. God created us to reveal Himself to the world…both the feminine and male qualities. Yes, God is neither male nor female but we were created in His image.
   Also, you do have to look at the context of Paul’s writings…you do have to look at the culture. Did Jesus say anything about women not teaching men, not being pastors etc? I don’t think so to my recollection. Paul did and yes, it is the inspired word of God, but you can’t dismiss the context and culture to suit either position. Another question to ask…does the southern baptists send out single female missionaries overseas? if they do, aren’t they in essense being “pastors” to the native people’s in the countries where they have been sent.
   My opinion about pulling the mag. from the bookstores…I think that is TOTALLY ridiculous. There are soooo many other critical issues to be considering than banning a magazine because they feature female pastors. You’d almost think it was a porn magazine. What do you think the non Christian community thinks? Vicki, I’d like to hear your thoughts of this issue!!!:):)

   Karyne Whalen | Sep 20, 2008 | Reply

10. i actually only have a problem with woman worship leaders…

    i kid…

    Ryan | Sep 20, 2008 | Reply

11. Gospel Today….do a lot of people even read this mag?

    Emery | Sep 20, 2008 | Reply

12. I just wanted to try to clarify something I read in the previous comments.

    The “feminization of the church” is just a phrase that has become sexy to use lately.

    It just describes how modern contemporary church services really do a lot to appeal to women. Men seem to be less interested in church because the service is unrelatable.

    The most often used example is worship music. Modern worship is largely these big-anthem-ballad-love-song-fests. While women may love to sing these songs and look forward to it as a weekly activity. Men might be more prone to look forward to softball and food.

    It’s just a theory. It has some obvious problems. But it also has a little merit.

    Scott | Sep 20, 2008 | Reply

13. Hey, has anyone ever wondered why Kingdom isn’t as present as it should be and why so many people think the Church is irrelevant?

    Because we - the church - spending so much of our time on debating our theology with each other and pointing out where each other are wrong!

    We were called to ’seek and save the lost’ and instead of doing that we have inhouse discussions about who is ‘in’ and who is ‘out’
    theologically.

    Seriously, even if God had only wanted men to be in leadership (which I don’t believe He did) even he’d be re-considering his decision given that 2000 years on we’re still nowhere near seeing the Kingdom come.

    Wendy | Sep 21, 2008 | Reply

14. I think what Karyne said makes a lot of sense, and I also must admit that Emery’s thought had occurred to me as well… :o)

    Jonathan | Sep 21, 2008 | Reply

15. Did Jesus say anything about women not teaching men, not being pastors etc?

    You can’t make an argument from silence.

    As for the fact that we were created equal before God, as male and female, this has no bearing on the issue. The issue is not our equality. In Christ, there is no male and female. The issue is whether there are certain roles. The Bible is clear that men are head over their wives, as Christ is head of his bride, the Church. If you don’t like that, then you have a problem with scripture. The Church for 2,000 years has likewise taught that the pastor is head of the Church (the bride), utilizing the Christ analogy but also taking into account Paul’s teaching.

    By the way, anyone can claim that the “Holy Spirit” is leading them to do such-and-such. Active homosexuals are claiming the same thing in mainline Protestant churches, and they are condemning anybody who disagrees with them as denying the Holy Spirit’s work.

    Kevin Davis | Sep 21, 2008 | Reply

16. Kevin,

    Acts 18:24-26, Apollos comes to Ephesus, a great and famous Jewish preacher from Alexandria, was teaching in the synagogue. Aquilas and Priscilla heard him and realised he didn’t know the full truth, and so they took him in and taught him - “and did more exactly expound to him the way of God”. I think this scripture is pretty clear that a woman, Priscilla, had teaching authority over a man, Apollos, and not just any man at that, a key leader and preacher in the church at that time.

    Mark Jaffrey | Sep 22, 2008 | Reply

17. I was surprised because, this Life way, sells many books in the store, by women pastors from different demonominations. This must be a new rule…. that started last Friday.

    truthy | Sep 22, 2008 | Reply

18. I am a female student who is seeking to become a pastor within the next couple of years. All of us have different talents that God has blessed us with. Some, like Vicky, are called to minister through song due to their gift to sing and play instruments, some are excellent writers and have been called to give a different spin on the same story so that more people can come to know and understand the life of Christ, and some are called to lead. While I do not know any of you personally, my friends and family can attest to the fact that I am a leader. I tried to teach my fourth grade class when my teacher stepped out to use the phone, I give directions to people that I do not even know who appear to be lost or confused, in a crowded, loud room and can give one yell and everyone will quiet down, I have a certain way of being able to explain things to people where they are at in their walk so that they can come to understand. I know that this gift to lead large groups of people is from God, so why not harness it to teach people they ways of God? I do not care what name you place on this form of ministry, but I am part of the Assemblies and we call these people pastors.

    Jamie. =) | Sep 22, 2008 | Reply

19. Well said Kelli!!…..I could not have said it better myself. Whom God calls He qualifies !!
    Everyone of these women are equipped to lead,and the Lord has anointed each one. And I know this for a fact. PUSH on sisters, It was prophesied in the last days he would pour out his spirit on “ALL FLESH”!!!!

    Bishop Stan Alston | Sep 22, 2008 | Reply

20. Kevin said “”The Bible is clear that men are head over their wives”"

    Conservative churches are all pumped up about Palin leading the country as VP or even President, but the same people think she can’t be a minister? huh?

    If she’s president someday Kevin, she can just snap her finger by executive order and you will obey her by law. You ok with that Kevin?

    We have more serious things to discuss in this country than to worry about pictures of females pastors on magazines. It’s just stupid.

    I grew up in a church with a female pastor and it was completely normal. (or whatever normal is) Only half of the males turned homosexual because of it……(come on, just kidding)

    sven | Sep 22, 2008 | Reply

21. Again, I would like to refer to the book “Why not Women?”, written by Loren Cunningham and David J. Hamilton. There is a great chapter about men being head of their wives etc. The authors suggest that “head” was wrongly translated. The Greek word for “head” also means “origin” and in the sense of the rest of this Bible text it makes a lot more sense. Furthermore, this particular Greek word is mostly translated as “origin” instead of “head”. Moreover, “the head of Christ is God” also makes a lot more sense of you replace it with the word “origin”. God, Christ and the Holy Spirit are One and therefore equal. There is no hierarchy in it.
    I think this is my last comment, because this is an endless discussion. I do again want to stress to keep (historical) context in mind. And also it is very important that maybe some mistakes are made in translating from the orginal Greek texts. However, I don’t want to question the authority of God. It is most important to be humble towards God. For me that’s sometimes very hard, because you can get caught up in a discussion like this, so this will be my last comment on the topic.

    Sanne | Sep 23, 2008 | Reply

22. My mother in law is a pastor.
    I grew up in the catholic church.. so I have given this issue a great deal of thought.

    About the magazines being taken down, hey we can’t fault others because they follow their conscience. I rather have ministries that are true to their beliefs than those who are willing to compromise them all just to follow the culture. Not displaying a magazine really shouldn’t be that big of a deal, it’s not like they started a TV campaign condemning women pastors.

    I don’t understand why we put such a strong emphasis on whether women can be “pastors” or not… it’s not like they are living in sin. Sometimes we are much more willing to follow a pastor who is living in sin than a woman.. why?

    We like picking and choosing which regulations we want to follow and which ones “were just cultural”. (i.e. women covering their heads, not speaking in public, etc)

    We can’t make decisions based on our fears. Will the church attract more women? Who knows? Churches have been filled with women for centuries, so we couldn’t fault “women pastors” for it.

    Ceci White | Sep 23, 2008 | Reply

23. What would the world look like if all churches acted as one body? This is not an issue that should separate us. We should be able to go to a church that supports our individual beliefs, but the belief in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior should bring us together regardless.
    In most cases I think we should stand up for a group that stands up for what they believe. Having said that I do not think that Lifeway made the right decision, becaus this is not a topic of a sinful act, just a difference in theology. If all Christian bookstores did this with every issue we would have as many Christian stores as we do denominations. I just don’t see how that can be good for the Church. Our town has one Christian bookstore, it carries Catholic, and protestant material.
    For those of you who said that they should follow their beliefs, is this wrong? If the owners are protestant should they not carry any Chatholic materials. If so, isn’t that just devisive? I think we need to have a little more humility.

    Meghan | Sep 23, 2008 | Reply

24. I realize you have a million comments… but

    If it bothers the conscience of Lifeway Stores, then why not let it be a Romans 14 thing?

    love
    bridget

    Bridget Willard | Sep 24, 2008 | Reply

25. Isn’t it great to know that prohibitions on women pastors, homosexuality as a sin, God’s love for His creation, and salvation are all just cultural. Obviously none are for today. I suggest that those who favor women preachers get some Whiteout and scissors and just remove those troublesome Paul passages from their Bibles. Sorry to be so sarcastic, but I have heard the “cultural” argument and the “Greek really means” argument to defend pedophilia, homosexual marriage, and worse. And PLEASE do not give me the “in my own experience” argument. Don’t correct God’s word, let it correct you.

    There are God ordained differences between men and women. Women are not inferior to men, just different. A man may sincerely want to give birth, but it is not going to happen. I guess Galatians 3:28 is refering to salvation for all.

    Karl | Sep 24, 2008 | Reply

26. Although I am highly interested in the debate of women as pastors, here are a few questions to chew on:

    Worship Leaders bring the Scripture in the songs that they sing and in the lyrics they write. Correct? Therefore, in such songs, they are teaching the congregation truths about God, pastoring them in music, which, along with reading Scripture, is worship. They, at that moment, are pastoring and shepherding the congregation into the throne room. Are they, then, not pastors as well?

    Personally, I am all for women as pastors, but I think that if we are going to draw lines, then we should be consistent.

    Secondly, on the topic of Lifeway Christian stores, lets take the theological issues out of it. Is it not called Lifeway Christian store for a reason? If it only wanted to be representing the Southern Baptist Beliefs, then shouldn’t it be called LifeWay Southern Baptist bookstore? In your opinion, is it a misrepresentation to only include a handful of doctrinal issues but label them all as Christian? If, by pulling the magazine out, they are making the claim that what is out of their doctrine is not “christian” then we all need to do a re-examination of beliefs that we truly believe make us followers of Christ. Are there any issues, like women in ministry, traditional hymns vs, contemporary music, that define our belief in Christ, or are there a few of these issues that are up for debate? If so, then shouldn’t all Christians be allowed to know both sides and decide for themselves?

    Bonnie Lewis | Sep 25, 2008 | Reply

27. “I suggest that those who favor women preachers get some Whiteout and scissors and just remove those troublesome Paul passages from their Bibles.”

    Actually, may I respectfully suggest that those who say there is a law that forbids women from teaching the bible to men or forbids women from being God-gifted as a pastor have already taken their scissors and cut out the context of the difficult passages of scripture. We need to read the verses in their context and not helicopter them out so that they stand alone.

    There is much evidence that the context defines the passages quite differently than the hard verses taken just by themselves. There are six short excerpts from a DVD series on Youtube that will give a different perspective. You can find the clips here.

    http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=%22cheryl+schatz%22&search_type=&aq=f

    There is a logical, and natural way to read the passages in their context regarding the inspired words that God used and the inspired grammar that actually releases women to serve in their gifts for the common good.

    Sometimes we have a view of women that is based on prejudice that we have carried through hundreds of years of misogyny because we haven’t worked hard enough to make the hard passages fit not only in their immediate context but also in the full view of scripture.

    Cheryl | Sep 25, 2008 | Reply

28. There are two issues with this move by Lifeway….first the role of women in church leadership…which has been addressed quite a bit in the comments.
    Second, is the hypocrisy of LifeWay. They carry books by Max Lucado and many others whose theology doesn’t match 100% with Southern Baptist theology. They also carry music by artists whose lifestyles would disquaify them from serving in the average SB church, Amy Grant, Sandi Patty (both divorced) and Ray Boltz (openly gay)….but they still sell their stuff. And their biggest superstar, Beth Moore, a big money maker for LifeWay. If someone denies the deity of Christ or proposes multiple ways to God…thats one thing…but when the disagreements are one secondary issues…we need to be consistent in our application of our theological beliefs…if not we’re merely hyprocrites and it makes us look petty.

    Camel Rider | Sep 27, 2008 | Reply

29. Neither women nor men should be getting “self-esteem” from the positions they hold. Self worth is based on the fact that we are made in the image of God and that we, believers, belong to Jesus Christ and not on any leadership role. People who are using their leadership positions in order to feel good about themselves should not be leaders. Women can be leaders. LifeWay does not say that women can’t be leaders. The SBC just aligns their position with the Scriptures and the Scriptures teach that a man should be the senior pastor or elder of a church. I commend the SBC and am grateful they hold to their convictions.

    Audrey Ellis | Oct 5, 2008 | Reply

30. LifeWay no longer carries Ray Boltz and his music has been removed from the shelves of the store.

    Audrey Ellis | Oct 5, 2008 | Reply

31. I want to help put this wrong right. Here is my contact information.
    Ruthella Logan-Livingston
    270 Hebron Street
    MA 02126
    617-364-1413
    857-654-6397-Cell
    ruthella12000@yah00.com

    Ruthella | Nov 10, 2008 | Reply

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